Daniel Dwek | William Hill 888 | Life Is a Statistical Game - Product Builder Podcast episode with Eyal David
Updated: 00:25:19

Daniel Dwek | William Hill 888 | Life Is a Statistical Game

Host: · Guest: Daniel Dwek · About the host

Daniel Dwek, Head of William Hill Gaming Products at 888, broke into product management after half a year of applying to every product job on the market, treating the job hunt as a statistical game: enough applications bring enough interviews, and enough interviews bring an offer. His advice for getting into product is to first take an adjacent role that builds data and UX skills, and to lead a real product project from inside it.

In this episode

  • Landing a first product job is a statistical game: enough CVs bring an interview, enough interviews bring an offer. For half a year Daniel applied to every product job on the market, including ones that required experience, until he got hired.
  • The path into product often runs through an adjacent role: conversion optimization gave Daniel the analytical skills and the UX side, two core elements of a product manager's work.
  • A relevant side project on a junior's CV is a real advantage: Daniel says he would ask about it in the interview and want to hear the details.
  • Gaming is an immediate industry: the day after a feature ships you see its impact in money, so understanding data and funnels matters even more there than in other products.
  • With senior management, stay at the high level: know your audience, don't start the story from the middle, and don't dive into the bits and bytes of the feature.
  • The Fun Theory: if something is fun, people will do it again. In gaming it shows up as a trigger, action and reward loop, and it can be used to move users to act without forcing them.

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Episode Description

Daniel Dwek runs all gaming products at William Hill, which was acquired by 888, with four product managers reporting to him. In conversation with Eyal David he explains why gaming is an immediate industry, where you see a feature's impact in money the very next day, and which skills a product manager needs there: communication, execution, UX and a deep understanding of data. He shares his path from social media and conversion at 888 into product management: an app project during his degree, leading a new 888 Poker website when his manager went on maternity leave, and six months of daily applications to every product job until he got hired. Daniel describes what he learned in his first three months as a PM, including prioritization, working with developers, storytelling to senior management and defining an MVP, and explains how the Fun Theory and the trigger, action and reward loop shape features in gaming and beyond.

Chapters

  1. 0:04 · Opening: why gaming is an immediate industry
  2. 2:20 · The role at William Hill and 888
  3. 3:31 · WinZone Free Play and recognition from Liquid & Grit
  4. 5:17 · The key skills for a product manager in gaming
  5. 6:42 · Juniors and internal mobility
  6. 7:18 · The path into product: from a degree project to the 888 Poker site
  7. 13:23 · Six months of applications: the job hunt as a statistical game
  8. 15:12 · The first job as a product manager
  9. 16:38 · The first three months, storytelling and MVP
  10. 19:31 · Advice to his younger self: don't give up
  11. 21:03 · The Fun Theory and the trigger-reward loop
  12. 24:38 · Advice for young PMs and wrap-up
Read the full transcript
Full transcript with speakers and timestamps

Selected quotes

“In the end it's a kind of statistical game, that's how I looked at it. You know, I'll submit enough CVs, eventually someone will invite me to an interview.”
— Daniel Dwek
“I look at a product manager like the CEO of some small startup.”
— Daniel Dwek
“When you want something, don't give up, keep going again and again and again, even if they tell you no”
— Daniel Dwek

Questions & answers

Who is Daniel Dwek?

Daniel Dwek is Head of William Hill Gaming Products at 888, managing four product managers responsible for William Hill's online products: casino, poker and bingo. He has been in the gaming industry for about ten years, previously worked at Playstudios, and started his career in social media and conversion optimization at 888.

How did Daniel Dwek move from marketing into product management?

While working in conversion at 888 he led the build of the new 888 Poker website after his manager went on maternity leave, and by the end of the project he knew this was what he wanted to do. He then spent half a year applying to every product job on the market until he landed his first role.

Which skills matter most for a product manager in gaming?

According to Daniel, a product manager is like the CEO of a small startup, so you need to be an all-around player: lots of communication, soft skills and execution. In gaming specifically, the two things that help most to get in are UX and a love of games, and an understanding of data, because every feature's impact is immediate.

How long does it take to settle into a first product manager role?

For Daniel it took about three months: learning to write user stories, prioritize, work with developers and get to know ceremonies like standup and retrospective. Only after that period did he start delivering work himself.

What is the Fun Theory and how does it relate to product management?

It's the idea that if something is fun, people will do it. Daniel describes how gaming builds a loop of trigger (like a push notification), action and reward, and how the same gamification principle works in other products too, for example Duolingo.

People & resources mentioned

Companies & orgs

product management gaming product career marketing to product job hunting Fun Theory gamification data

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