Asaf Shochet Avida & Stas Wishnevetsky | Product and R&D, All on the Table: A Special Episode - Product Builder Podcast episode with Eyal David
Updated: 00:48:40

Asaf Shochet Avida & Stas Wishnevetsky | Product and R&D, All on the Table: A Special Episode

Host: · Guest: Asaf Shochet Avida & Stas Wishnevetsky · About the host

Asaf Shochet Avida (Front End Tech Lead at Evinced) and Stas Wishnevetsky (Director of Engineering at Melio) bring engineering's side of the relationship with product. In their view, most of the tension between product and R&D comes from misaligned expectations: different KPIs on each side, product stepping into the "how", and time estimates that turn into a blame war. The fix is one shared business goal, a shared language, a North Star built together, and trust built over time, much like in a relationship.

In this episode

  • When product and engineering share one business KPI, the whole organization aligns: engineering can translate the goal into decisions like quality vs. quick and dirty, and product's internal selling gets easy.
  • In time estimates the dimension you can play with is confidence: for quarterly planning a small/medium/large ballpark is enough, and precision is needed only as you get closer to the sprint.
  • The way to cool down the blame war around estimates is transparency: invite product to the design review, put every component on the table, and decide together what to cut into drops.
  • To get an infrastructure project or tech debt prioritized, engineering needs to translate it into product language: why it will raise velocity, quality or accessibility, and what value each stage delivers on its own.
  • A North Star built jointly by product and engineering works like a constitution: every scope or expansion debate is tested against it, and the process of building it creates trust.
  • Tasks of a day or two don't need a discussion, you just do them. If product is flooded with small details, there's a problem in the process.

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Episode Description

A special three-way episode: Eyal David hosts Asaf Shochet Avida, Front End Tech Lead at accessibility company Evinced, and Stas Wishnevetsky, Director of Engineering at Melio, to put on the table everything that bothers engineering about working with product people. They discuss the most important skills for a product manager, the tension that arises when product steps into the "how", and the need for one business KPI that connects product and engineering. Through the building-and-neighborhood analogy and a Stripe example they explain why a software product is never finished, and how to approach time estimates through confidence, design reviews and transparency. Later: how to prioritize tech debt and infrastructure projects with product, when R&D ends up writing a PRD, and how to build trust with a shared North Star, shared wins and emotional intelligence. They close with a recommendation for the book Peopleware.

Chapters

  1. 4:14 · The most important skills of a product manager
  2. 6:28 · The source of tension: when product steps into the "how"
  3. 7:36 · A shared KPI: product as engineering's API to the business
  4. 13:11 · The building, the neighborhood and the Stripe analogy
  5. 18:51 · Time estimates, design reviews and aligning expectations
  6. 23:23 · Confidence in estimates and balancing budget vs. scope
  7. 28:17 · How to prioritize tech debt and infrastructure projects
  8. 35:25 · A shared language, trust and a North Star
  9. 41:45 · Recommendations: no nonsense, shared wins and EQ
  10. 46:05 · Book recommendation: Peopleware
Read the full transcript
Full transcript with speakers and timestamps

Selected quotes

“Product is basically the bridge. It's my API to the outside, to the business.”
— Asaf Shochet Avida
“In time-estimate conversations, the dimension you can play with is confidence.”
— Stas Wishnevetsky
“If you clutter the mind with things that are too small, it means we have a problem in the process.”
— Asaf Shochet Avida

Questions & answers

Who are Asaf Shochet Avida and Stas Wishnevetsky?

Asaf Shochet Avida is Front End Tech Lead at Evinced, an accessibility company, a conference speaker and the author of the blog frogrammer.net. Stas Wishnevetsky is Director of Engineering at Melio and writes about collaboration between engineering managers and product managers.

Why is there tension between product and R&D?

According to Asaf and Stas, the tension comes from misaligned expectations: each side has different KPIs (conversion vs. quality and velocity), product sometimes steps into the "how" and not just the "what", and time estimates become a source of pressure and a blame war.

How should product and engineering approach time estimates?

Treat planning as an iterative process where the required confidence changes: rough estimates are enough for annual or quarterly planning, while a sprint needs precision. At the same time, bring product into design reviews and agree together on splitting the work into drops.

How do you convince product to prioritize tech debt?

Build a case in product language: what the risk is if you don't do it, how it will affect velocity, quality and accessibility, and break the project into stages that each have value on their own. Small tasks go into the technical backlog budget without discussion.

Which book is recommended in the episode?

Peopleware, a classic book on the dynamics between people and teams in software organizations, which is also a good fit for product people.

People & resources mentioned

Companies & orgs

Books & media

  • Peopleware (Tom DeMarco and Timothy Lister)
Product and Engineering R&D Collaboration Time Estimates Tech Debt KPIs Aligning Expectations North Star

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