Transcript: An Interview Is a Micro-Cosmos of Product Management — Tal Keiler, Evinced

Eyal David: [00:00] Hi friends, this is Eyal. You've reached Product Builder, where you can listen to the most interesting product conversations. My journey began in 2012 when I learned what product is at my own startup. Since then I've worked in the industry, and since 2017 my company has been consulting for a variety of companies. My drive is to help all of us improve as product people. And before we start, if you enjoy listening to Product Builder, please rate us five stars on Spotify. It'll give me great feedback that the podcast gives you value, and it would make me very happy. So come on, let's begin. Good morning Tal, how are things? What's up? Good morning. Do you know you're already the fourth interviewee from Evinced? Wow, really, out of 20. Out of 20 good people. So Tal, you came to us and...

Tal Kailler: [00:53] Tell us in a few words. So I'm Tal, I manage the product group for the web products at Evinced. At Evinced we basically build products that help large enterprises make all of their digital assets accessible. Accessibility is a very big challenge. Today everyone has to be accessible. Both because all the brands want to be inclusive, and because there's regulation and there's no choice. And also, think about all the people fighting over 0.2 percent conversion, and people with disabilities are actually quite a significant percentage of the population. When we talk about disabilities it can range from... some vision issue — even if you're over 40 you need to enlarge the font a bit — all the way to people who are blind and need to use screen readers, or can only use a keyboard and can't use a mouse. There's actually a very wide range of disabilities, and there are standards on the matter. It's something that's very expensive, complex and hard to do. And at Evinced we basically have a set of products for everyone involved in the craft, to help them make their products accessible. We have a product for designers and a product for developers and testers, and we have automated tests and a tool for unit testing, and also things already in production. And we're basically talking about shift-left. Get it in as early as possible into the development process. If you develop it accessible from the start, it'll save you a lot of time, pain and money,

Eyal David: [02:18] compared to shipping it to production, getting the lawsuit, and then starting to fix it. Exactly. So you also understand, you help from above to look at the whole plan, like the whole accessibility state in the organization, right? Yes. Basically through a platform. So if someone wants to hear more about the company and what it does, there really are a few very interesting episodes we've already recorded. And Tal, tell us a bit about yourself so we understand who's with us.

Tal Kailler: [02:43] So I've been a product manager for many years now. I started as a programmer many, many years ago, and then I reached the conclusion that my passion is in people and business and products. I worked at Verint, I started there as a product marketing manager, then I moved to product management at another defense startup, so that was my B2G chapter. Then I moved to LivePerson, at LivePerson they're basically B2B2C, they build a platform, back then it was a chat platform, today it's already AI and all that, and I was responsible for the B2C part of the B2B, but even then I worked with all the biggest enterprises, with all the brands. Do you work with them today? Yes, everyone I worked with, today. Then I moved to Gett and there I did B2C, I basically led the redesign of Gett's passenger app — anyone who orders a taxi knows it. And I was at vcita, I did there — it's the small business sector — I did all kinds of platform bits of the product there,

Eyal David: [03:47] and now I'm at Evinced, I manage the whole web products group. And we'd wanted to meet for a long time, we also know each other, so to speak, and basically the basis for the conversation we thought about is, well, let's put it this way, Evinced basically hires a lot of people, over — generally hires a lot of people — and we basically wanted to talk, given the state of the market, and following the conversations we had off mic around interviews, and how can we — things we identify, things we've seen — and how can we take something from it and improve, right?

Tal Kailler: [04:23] Totally. And by the way, this is all a micro-cosmos ultimately of product management, since you come to test abilities, so it's...

Eyal David: [04:30] So tell us for a second before we dive into it — what, in your view, really, with so many companies, so many types, so many types of product roles, you were also on the other side, of development — what in your view is the most important product skill in product people?

Tal Kailler: [04:44] A product person needs to know how to lead. It's leading without authority, they need to sweep people along with them, it means they need to be the subject matter expert, they need to be in the data, they need to know the product best of everyone, to be its mother and father, to be a problem solver. Basically, being a product manager is solving problems all day, and that's also something very important. Prioritization — I think it's one of the most, most important things in product management. Also when I talk about prioritization, and putting priorities on things, this is both when it comes to your roadmap, and you decide what goes in and what doesn't, but the product manager's role is basically the busiest role there is, so also prioritizing your day-to-day — you get up in the morning, what must you do today? What can't end today without you having done it? So it's constantly prioritizing and choosing, and being able to zoom in and out, and of course communication skills. It's something very, very important that also relates to everything we said — meaning, you prioritized, explain it; you want to lead people, convince them. And be nice, and probably all the soft skills along the way to serve the goal you're actually trying to rally others toward, right?

Eyal David: [05:58] So if we distill this for a second to conveying messages, right? And let's go for a second to the interview, yes? So these are basically the things you're probably trying to find in the interview, right? So like really from the top, how do you do it from your side?

Tal Kailler: [06:12] How does it look from your side? From my side I basically examine all kinds of aspects of it. Even the first thing, which is 'tell me about yourself' — it's a part I learn a ton from, meaning, it could be that already at this stage I'll understand the person isn't a fit, if they're not focused, if they don't know how to explain the value — meaning, they'll tell me, or pick the project, so let's say how they, I don't know, prioritized bugs and didn't tell me about a big and meaningful project they did. So already there — besides that I really am interested to hear about their career and their career decisions, because that teaches me about them, but I also really watch to hear how they present themselves.

Eyal David: [06:53] How did they actually tell a story? You know, even prioritizing bugs — if we take that for a second — I can also, see, you can also tell it much better, right?

Tal Kailler: [07:01] Right. If there was some real thinking there, whether I prioritized and whether I solved some problem, and I knew the product well and maybe made people not do it, because I understood it's not the thing and I convinced them, then maybe even that can be turned into a treat. If now, I don't know, I made changes that are a lot of small changes, but ultimately I brought a ton of money into the organization, then come tell me about that, don't tell me about the list of bugs. Or if now I saved a ton of money because, I don't know, I streamlined processes, or solved a problem,

Eyal David: [07:31] or... so again, that already takes the story to a completely different place. Wow, that's stunning. Like, whoever comes to interview with you, if they hear — or you hear — this episode, then like, gold. Tell us maybe for a second, but really from your side, like, you're busy all day, right? Right. You go over resumes, how does it look? How does it look? Like, maybe it even starts there, the whole interaction with you?

Tal Kailler: [07:51] It starts there, at the resume. I think that when you write a resume, you need to take into account that you have 30 seconds. You have 30 seconds to explain who it is, who you are. And to make them, from it, invite you to an interview. And it's the simplest things, like for example, people don't write what the company does. Meaning, they write the company name. What is it? Is it a startup? Is it big? Is it small? What do they do? Like, if you don't work at Microsoft or Google, then explain — even that — don't make me go now to Google and search. And everything needs to be short, focused, and tell the story. Tell me the things you did, what your achievements are. What, basically, what did you do? Which is also — Shai Shprank was here from Empathy. He said, a resume is like a product, basically. Exactly like that. And in general, this product needs — even before it reaches me, even for it to pass at all, there are usually filters along the way, right? Right. There's probably some algorithm that goes over the resume at all, and after that there's the HR or... make sure you also have the right buzzwords, meaning, if you dealt with AI, that it be written; if you did — you have some interesting training, if — again, if your project just brought in and changed some metric and brought in money, that it be written there so we see it, we'll see it. And just like you don't want to come to a website and see something really really cluttered, which also looks... again, it's not what's critical, but it's another bonus point, that your resume looks aesthetic and inviting and not too long,

Eyal David: [09:20] because it really is 30 seconds, you have 30 seconds. A product. You know, also, I think the story — everyone has a story of how they got into product, right? Right. And it's always some way that you prioritized and pushed and... it's also a story you can probably PR and turn into something that basically describes your abilities. Right.

Tal Kailler: [09:39] Or yours. So that's basically the first question I ask, it's 'tell me about yourself,' or 'tell me about yourself.' And here I think it's also very important to understand the brief. Meaning, if I say, okay, let's take five minutes, and tell me about yourself — you don't need to now dive deep into what happened at Gandina and your achievements there. You have five minutes. And there was love in the air and you saved a ton of money. You saved a ton of money. And here I also read out some call to women — that I feel there's sometimes a difference between women and men, in how they tell about themselves. Women sometimes apologize a bit for their career, or use words like 'I got lucky,' or 'it worked out for me.' And here I really call on everyone, know how to tell your story. Right, you always need luck. So there you go, by the way everyone needs luck. You need the role to open up, right? But ultimately if they took you for the role, it's a sign you deserved it, and if you got that promotion, it's because you deserved it. So know how to tell the story, and it's something you need to practice. Meaning, I think a person needs to be able — you could wake them up in the middle of the night and they could tell the story off the cuff, in several versions — short, medium and long. So it's something you need to practice, and also fake it till you make it — even if it's hard for you or them to tell about successes, then you need to practice it, and it's something you can practice on anyone, even — whatever — a partner who isn't from tech, and tell their story, and again emphasize the achievements. And it's a great idea,

Eyal David: [11:16] I'm like thinking as I go — basically what helps a lot to focus a message? A presentation, right? Right, because you need to convey in a very simple and lean and concise way what you want to convey, so maybe build a presentation about yourself, or about your story — that's a good thing, and then you can also convey it, like you said, to a partner, to a grandmother, to Dina, but without the presentation, just the pitch. But it's a great tool, to build a message. You know, I'll tell you one more thing — what you said about women is very interesting, it's an observation that maybe I, as a man, if I were interviewing, wouldn't have noticed, whereas you're more sensitive to it because you interview women. Yes, because I notice, really,

Tal Kailler: [11:53] sometimes it's hard for me — sitting across from a woman, talented, who did, and led, and she's somewhere apologizing for it, and if you take the same story and a man tells it, then he'll put much more emphasis on the successes, and he'll take maybe even more credit, and it's something you really need to work on, and everyone needs to make sure they, he or she, know how to tell their resume, and there too, again, there's the short version, and there's the longer version, and you also need to know how to justify your career choices. Why you left — meaning, it could be you didn't get along with the boss, there are several ways to tell this thing, meaning, it can happen to anyone that not everyone gets along, and that's fine, but know how to tell the story, know how to explain, know how to justify, and it's also very, very important — never bad-mouth other places, meaning, even if ultimately you go to court, you really were right and they were very unfair to you, but if you tell it in a way that bad-mouths your place,

Eyal David: [12:52] it detracts a bit. Let's put it from your side — you, in the end, with all the pleasant conversation and all, you come to interview, and you basically want to reduce the risk as much as possible about the candidate, and these are the warning lights.

Tal Kailler: [13:04] Right, I want someone who got along with everyone. Now it's fine — again, not everyone got along with everyone — it's fine that there was someone you didn't get along with, and I also always ask if there was someone you didn't get along with, and try to hear the story. But ultimately, you need to,

Eyal David: [13:16] and laughing, to make sure that... that's it, because the reason in the end, like you said, what you look for, pleasant people, nice in the company's collisions — but mainly people who know how to rally other people, exactly. Like, if you don't have that, then.

Tal Kailler: [13:28] It's exactly like that. What about coming prepared? So coming prepared, there are many kinds of prepared. First of all, of course, like it's obvious — open the website, look at what they do, if you can try the products, that's best, read a bit about competition — competition, again,

Eyal David: [13:50] it's all a question of what stage you're also at. Come, let's take — you'll understand — say now, say, someone came to you for an interview, or someone passed all the stages

Tal Kailler: [13:57] up to me, how many stages are there actually up to me — part? Up to me there's a phone interview, meaning, the recruiter needs to even read the resume, a phone interview, and then I'm basically the first interview, sometimes I also do a phone interview. So it's...

Eyal David: [14:10] Wow, that's hard. Much harder than Zoom, or for that matter coming in. Yes, so a phone interview,

Tal Kailler: [14:16] I think what's important is, again, to convey messages briefly. That's it, that's where you need to start. Yes, be concise, convey the most important messages, and then there's the first interview. So what, they come and meet you, basically? Yes, they meet me. I usually do it at the office as well, because I want them to come too — I want them to feel the office vibe, because ultimately, by the way, an interview is a mutual fit. It's also — the interviewee needs to want us, or the interviewee needs to want to come to us. So come, see the vibe, what's happening, like, look, open your eyes,

Eyal David: [14:50] look at what's happening around. When I get there, basically — and let's take Evinced as an example, because then we can really focus it —

Tal Kailler: [14:57] what would you expect the basic knowledge I come with to be? First of all, that they check the website, that they understand what we do, we have a video, products, look a bit — I don't expect them to dive into this thing now for two days, but just to look, understand what we do, understand the market, maybe search a bit — today ChatGPT can also give you such a good summary, ask it for a second about competition, what's going on, what the market looks like, so there's a general understanding. By the way, it also helps, because when we ask professional questions, it also helps that you have a bit of that knowledge, the bit extra. So there's that preparation, but being prepared is many more things, like I said earlier — know how to tell your story. But there are also questions that are often asked, and it always surprises me, that people come and don't have an answer to it off the cuff, for example, the most banal answers — what are your strengths, what are your weaknesses, know how to tell. There, now I also know

Eyal David: [15:50] which strengths to say, which strengths to say, because I heard what you're looking for. Although I don't think you should specifically listen to me,

Tal Kailler: [15:57] after all everyone knows what's needed in a product manager, and by the way there are also all kinds of types of product manager — if you're a product manager who's more technical, then maybe I'd put emphasis on other things; if it's a product manager who's business-y, then maybe it's slightly different skills, so you can also check, by the way, according to the job description, and also on ChatGPT, which things, which things — again, I'm not saying, go lie, make up what ChatGPT says, but every person has strengths and weaknesses,

Eyal David: [16:23] think about what your strengths are. If I were to really formalize this — you said ChatGPT of course, but at the most basic level, like you say, you can generate first of all an executive summary about the company, at the most basic level, and then upload maybe your resume or your LinkedIn, and then ask it to see where there's really a fit, and where I can connect, and further add in also as input the job description, and maybe from Glassdoor or something like that, I'm just saying, basically, and generate some discovery research in the end about the company, and about your fit there. And you can do this very easily, but I will say don't lie, because ultimately, first of all it's a small country and everyone knows everyone, and again, I'll never go and sift with someone who works...

Tal Kailler: [17:10] Yes, our listeners don't lie. Yes, but I'm sure. I mean, yes, it's important, because ultimately also, in the interview these things surface, because in the interview you're not sitting with ChatGPT.

Eyal David: [17:22] Also come, let's say, say you passed, and now like, you arrive at the role, and it just doesn't fit. Right. You lied, so what? Everyone lost and you came out like, one more correct line on the resume. Ultimately, there needs to be a fit,

Tal Kailler: [17:34] the fit needs to be real. More preparation — they ask you about a case of disagreement with someone, about a case of failure or an embarrassment, so these are all things you can be prepared for, you don't need to like on the spot think, wait, what embarrassment did I do, or what, and also with these things, meaning, when I ask this question, the main thing I'm looking to hear is that you have no ego. Meaning, the embarrassment itself, is not what's critical here, but to hear that you have no ego, that you admit a mistake, take responsibility — like, we all make embarrassing mistakes, and I also say this, and I sometimes give an example of an embarrassment I did, so that people feel comfortable telling me, but it's something that is important, that I'm looking to hear — that they didn't tell a story where in the end from the story I understand that it actually wasn't their fault, but rather someone else's, because if they'd checked properly, or all kinds of such things. No, tell me really something you screwed up, and you take responsibility for it, and that's — wow, from my side, a person who is accountable and has no ego, it's something that's important for the role. That's it, you need to remember that every question here comes, again, to reduce risk. To tuck it into a story, that's rather. What things are you actually trying to understand in that interview when you meet? I'm looking to hear about a meaningful project the candidate did. It doesn't look good when you take something that's from three jobs ago, or something that sounds relatively negligible. I'm looking to hear that my candidate led something big and rallied, and to hear why, and to hear her decisions, and how she got to it. I always ask that, something I go in to see, how she got there. By the way, it's also fine if not, but again, tell me the story as it is, and again, also here, don't go into too many details, tell what's important, tell about the value, tell why I did it,

Eyal David: [19:33] and ultimately again, it's a micro-cosmos of product management. We're talking here about how to tell your resume, and how to tell your stories, but in the end as a product manager you tell stories all day. So come, come let's break this down too.

Tal Kailler: [19:47] What do you expect to hear in the story? We keep basically dancing around it. What do you expect to hear in the story? I, first thing, am looking to hear the why. That's it, how you distill this thing. Yes. First of all, a title, basically? Yes. A, what was it? B, why? Why did you do it? And let's give an example. When I worked at Gett, that's the easiest to interview about. An example from three jobs ago, come on. Yes, exactly. But Gett is the easiest because the product — everyone understands it, everyone. And I'd tell the candidates, before you come, play a bit with the app, and think — dedicate ten minutes to it — what things you'd add. What I was looking to hear is basically that the candidates would say, okay, now, what, as a product manager, what's the metric I'm trying to optimize? What am I trying to do? I'm trying now to generate as many rides as possible. Okay, so my metric is number of orders. Okay, how do I increase number of orders? And to start from there, and not to look and say, ah, if the button were on the right and not on the left, then it would be more usability. By the way, it could be that that's the solution, but let's start from the metric. So why is that the first thing I'm looking to see? Meaning, even if I'm at Evinced, that I give a question, and I won't detail here which questions I give, but I give a question of solving, I sometimes show something in the product and ask for some upgrade to it, so I, first thing, want to understand that they understand what I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to optimize here, and then from there make the decisions. And that way my decisions are always justified. And by the way, it could be that I'm wrong, because I'm not in the biz — like, the candidate isn't inside the business, and she doesn't know how things work, but the moment she explains her logic to me, and stems from some metric she's trying to optimize,

Eyal David: [21:34] and there's a reason and everything is very explained, then... I don't think she's wrong, I think all the more so, right? A candidate arrives and needs to understand what the business is, how it operates, how it makes money, what its challenges are on the way to making money, right? What products there are, and how basically the little shortcut generated more rides for me, like you say, right?

Tal Kailler: [21:55] Exactly, and by the way, you can ask, because ultimately, we're all here not just to help the world, but because in the end this is a business, and we want to make money, and if you can't manage to understand what the business model is, then come, ask, I'll really appreciate it, even if it's in the middle of an interview, and I ask you a question, and you ask me, okay, how do you, what's your pricing model? Do you do it per scan, or do you sell it like, all-inclusive? Don't go deep, no one knows what a scan is. Yes, sorry, right, an accessibility scan, so it's...

Eyal David: [22:26] Wow, that's so true. Even if it takes a few more minutes, the answer will be so much more in-depth, and the discussion will be so much more interesting.

Tal Kailler: [22:32] Usually, in this interview, this interview — do you do it alone, or is there someone else in the room? I usually like to bring someone from the team, both because, again, in the interview itself, I want them to get to know the team too, they see what a fun dynamic we have, and also because I really want the opinion of the team member, to hear their view on the candidate, to ask questions they want to know — ultimately, it's one more person for the team. So you said you don't want

Eyal David: [22:59] to tell here about questions, but maybe still, yes, give some generic question for the sake of it and let's try maybe to think about it for a second.

Tal Kailler: [23:09] A lot of the time these are questions about metrics, meaning, which metrics do you think we'll need, what interests the — meaning, both us as a business, and our customers, what they'd want to see, maybe all kinds of dashboards,

Eyal David: [23:27] so questions about analytics. Classic — also like arriving and understanding the customer, basically, and then you can from there basically derive the data we'd want to show. What really in terms of — I talked about data like this earlier, before we opened a microphone,

Tal Kailler: [23:42] basically, at the data level, what do you expect to see from the candidate? First of all, not to scatter too much. Meaning, you need to understand that there are supporting metrics, and ultimately there aren't 100 thousand metrics you're trying to optimize, and you're trying to optimize a ton of things together. Second thing, explain to me exactly what it is. Meaning, sometimes they tell me, to measure engagement. What does that mean, to measure engagement? I want, when I ask about a metric, give me a metric I can understand what I'm pulling from the database. Really, what is engagement in the context of Evinced? Right, it's an enterprise tool, that comes to solve some point. What is engagement? Exactly. But sometimes they tell me, yeah, the accessibility manager is interested in measuring engagement. Okay, so tell me what. They opened the product three times a week, ran accessibility scans, and if needed, you can also ask questions, like a bit... but come let's really focus this, what is he really... an accessibility manager in such a big organization, what he's looking for is to see that people connect three times a day, or is he more interested in — people use the product, and we're pushing this program forward. My money is invested properly. And maybe I'm even interested in seeing how many accessibility issues they resolved, and what... like, maybe that's actually the direction that the engagement there interests me, so put yourself, or step into the shoes of the user

Eyal David: [24:54] whose problem you're now trying to solve. What do you do? Listen, this, with all the AI, it's just crazy. Build me a persona, right?

Tal Kailler: [25:00] Right. How easy. But, yeah, but when you're sitting in an interview, there's no AI, there's no AI,

Eyal David: [25:06] but it's preparation, right? Yes. By the way, today you can also turn to AI to help you prepare, like, tell it, I'm going to this company and such, what questions can they ask me in an interview, and a lot of the time it gives beautiful ideas. Really. So okay, say, we understood the KPIs well, we knew how to answer this part,

Tal Kailler: [25:24] basically now what, would you want to see later in the interview? I always want to see UX. Interesting, at a company like Evinced UX, right? Yes, sure. By the way, specifically at a company like Evinced, when the products are really really complex, it's really important to me — someone who knows how to build a simple UI, that also, by the way, is communicative, conveys the message, what needs to be done, sometimes the task is very very complex. UX also helps tell a story. Exactly. So again, who's the user, put yourself in her shoes, what is she trying to do? It's hard to give tips in UX, but broadly, high-level things like this — think about the real estate and its division. Okay, you have a screen. First of all, always, draw the screen. It's really hard for me when people draw UX, and it's like, it has no boundaries. Why is it hard for you? Because they tell a story with their hands. Exactly. It's really hard, a picture's worth a thousand words, right? Exactly.

Eyal David: [26:20] Let's think for a second, are we talking mobile or are we talking desktop? So let's draw for a second the boundaries of the sector.

Tal Kailler: [26:27] Okay, this is the screen. A person gets up in the morning, sees this UX? What do they see? What do they think? You need to think about real estate. A lot of the time I see that they put something for me that takes up half a screen, that you could do in a small line, and maybe it's not that critical. To think about the hierarchy, the information. What's most important? What's less important? It's in the end, and if I show something from our product, then you need to think along that same line. Meaning, you need to see — you can also ask to click on something, to see, just to see how things work, meaning,

Eyal David: [27:04] and to build something that fits it. Let's dwell on this for a second and then continue. You know, but why? Because when you tell a story, then also, you don't want to move the cheese too far, you want the audience to know the message, know its basis, at least of the story, right? Right. So let's leave the UI as it is, you're not coming to design now, you're in an interview. Exactly. You want to tell her story?

Tal Kailler: [27:28] By the way, also when you work inside an organization, then ultimately, consistency is something very very important in UX, and in understanding the interface. So I'm looking to see that someone knows how to work.

Eyal David: [27:42] You don't want to put all the designers on yourself now either — we said, we said to rally people and communication. And one more thing about the UX questions,

Tal Kailler: [27:49] make a decision. Meaning, I often sit in an interview, and this is something that really repeats itself, and specifically I can't say it's only women, it's men too. And they give me two options. I can do it like this with a pop-up, or I can pull out a panel from the side. Okay, but cool, so tell me, I have two options, the advantages of this option are like this, and the advantages of this option are like this, but ultimately, I'm looking to see a person who knows how to make a decision, even if you'll be a product manager on my team, then of course I'll be here, and I'm here to support you, but ultimately, you need to make decisions and need — I want someone who knows how to make the decisions. I once had a boss who told me, I prefer that you make a decision and be wrong, than that you leave question marks. So that's one more thing, it's one more thing that's also at Wix specifically and in general,

Eyal David: [28:43] you know what, it really helps to put some deadline, even if it's in an interview, so in five more minutes I decide no matter what, or even if it's in life, you know what, a little tip around what you just said — even if I don't know how to decide on the spot,

Tal Kailler: [28:57] draw a pros and cons, it's good for it, show me you're taking it on, and in the end we'll live together for the sake of it. No, we won't live together, I want to see — meaning, I'm interested to know, there's a dilemma. But the pros and cons is like this, lower it, and you can say, gently, and also you don't need to apologize, I present, and sometimes they tell me, well I don't know how it is with you, and okay, but you, or you now, you're in an interview, I presented you some product, this is all the knowledge you have, now based on this knowledge, make a decision, lower it. It helps a lot,

Eyal David: [29:30] we also talked just about dashboards, real estate — if you know who the user is, and you know what for the sake of it, decisions, the action you want them to take, right? Which decision they need to make, which data I need to show them so they make the decision, and then like, according to that you can build the hierarchy, it's some way to do it. Exactly. Cool. More things around UX that come up for you, what else are you trying to show? That it's simple, that I know how to tell the story.

Tal Kailler: [29:55] Yes, I'm looking to see the story, that it's simple, that it's simple, that it's visible, I'm looking to see that they use conventions, yes, ultimately, you don't need to reinvent the wheel every time anew,

Eyal David: [30:09] and to do something that's easy in the end. What else are you trying to see there? Now there are trends in the world, there's AI, right? Right. You're building an AI company, right? Yes.

Tal Kailler: [30:21] What do you expect to see around that? I expect to see that the person has gotten to use it, that they're familiar, that they read, that they take interest, that... maybe proactive, for the sake of it? Yes, proactive. I'm also looking to see, when I ask questions, say, about how you'd solve a problem, then I think the first thing you need to ask yourself is, how can AI help me. Nowadays, whoever doesn't have AI,

Eyal David: [30:46] probably won't last much longer, so today, when you ask a product question, first thing, I ask myself, what can I do with AI? And also, maybe connect AI, but not just say AI, connect it again to the product thinking we defined. Totally, integrate it into...

Tal Kailler: [31:04] integrate it, of course, I ask a question, I show a feature, and I ask to add some addition to it,

Eyal David: [31:11] so first of all, ask yourself, what can AI help me with here, and also when I build UX, then think like, okay, there are things here I can do with AI, that's first thing, that's first thing, because there's nothing to do about it, that's where the world is going now, and whoever isn't there doesn't exist. Yes, and I appreciate, what I'd appreciate, if someone were, or someone chooses the AI solution, but says, listen, to train a model now on this thing will cost us a lot of money. Right. Let's think together whether it's worth it for us, or maybe it's worth spinning some manual, or developing it differently, so I understand that also regardless, the technical aspect also very much interests you now. Right. With us there's a real interview — we also do a technical interview,

Tal Kailler: [31:49] but yes, I want to hear that whoever did, and whoever I interview, first of all, that they're familiar with what they work on today, meaning, everyone who comes to an interview, I think needs to at least know, what the high-level architecture of their product looks like, and to know how to explain all kinds of technical decisions, that were made, meaning, why like this, or not otherwise, this is less in the interview I do, but it is in interviews, meaning, over all the years I conduct — product management, also the technical stage — these are the places you really need to know how to explain.

Eyal David: [32:25] Let's explain why, for a second, because it really connects to the skill you mentioned, right? How can I make a decision, or find the focus in the thing, or rally someone if I don't speak the language? Exactly, and ultimately, we're in tech. And you also come to tell a story going forward in the end, why to do this thing? Right. So it too will come up, from its complexity, it's so much part of the story, right?

Tal Kailler: [32:45] Totally, and also, I think that for a product manager, one of the most important partnerships there is at work, is with your development counterpart, and you need to speak the same language, and you need to insist with them, sometimes if we feel they're exaggerating in their effort estimation, or sometimes they'll present us two alternatives, and you need to know how to choose, you have to be a speaker of the language, if you want to be in tech.

Eyal David: [33:13] Yes, also how will I come out? If I'm later asked questions about things that were basically decided, between this partnership, and I don't know how to answer them, or I have no idea how the thing is built, I can say, hey, I'll go check, and that's really fine, but I have to understand it, at least at the most basic level. By the way, also ultimately, when we talk about user experience, consider that performance is part of user experience, meaning, it's always that gray topic, that annoying one, that you need to deal with in performance, but if you have the best product in the world, and it doesn't move, then you won't have users. Or maybe if there's a performance problem, and I need, at all, for now, in a first stage, maybe just to hide it with some sugar, right? Right. I need to know it, to work on the other side of development. And by the way, AI adds a lot to this, meaning, AI has a lot of effect on it, because a lot of the time, AI is things that used to be taken faster — the moment you bring in AI, then suddenly, you need to do all kinds of queries and so on, it's like, it's something that maybe can be solved in user experience, maybe to make things asynchronous, if there are all kinds of solutions, but it's something you have to think about, it's like super, it's like, there's a super technical element in it, but it's also super user experience in the end. Really. I'm going to lift you up for a second, but this is the lift-up for the sake of it, okay? So really, you came back very recently now from a conference,

Tal Kailler: [34:31] want to tell about it in two words? Yes, I presented at Figma's Config conference, it's a crazy conference, a small one, yeah. Small — well, ten thousand, twenty thousand, something like that, it's huge and big, and I gave a talk there on the topic, we called it New Options for Accessibility.

Eyal David: [34:50] So come, I don't know how many people were in the room, were there many? There were many, they came,

Tal Kailler: [34:56] it started with them telling me, yeah, we're doing a talk, maybe 23 people will come, and ultimately a few hundred came, oh, that's wonderful,

Eyal David: [35:02] we'll put a link to the talk, if you want, or you'll put it on your LinkedIn and we'll link, but basically, it's an excellent example of how to tell a story, and then you can really walk us through it, okay? Because basically, we're not just talking here, we also do. Yes. So basically what happened there, it's a situation where you came to speak with designers, and developers for the sake of it, for whom accessibility is probably not the most significant thing, right, in their day-to-day, and right now, wow, Figma is changing the world, we talked AI, matters, that's basically the focus, and you come to tell a story about accessibility, but not only to interest and tell, you want to interest them, right? Right.

Tal Kailler: [35:38] So accessibility, first of all, happily, is gaining more popularity, meaning, if I look two years back, I don't think the world was occupied with it like this, but today, basically, we've reached a state where everyone understands accessibility is needed, but not everyone knows what it means. Now, remember we talked about shift-left, so basically we say, let's bring accessibility as much as possible into the beginning of the development process, and what's earliest in the development process if not the design? And you need to understand that also for people with disabilities, this is about user experience. Ultimately, if a person is blind and needs to use an interface, if a screen reader, ultimately, user experience — I can't throw it on the developer, and say, well, let him put something in there, just so it's accessible. And by doing so you harm the person. And here basically is the challenge, that also a lot of the time they don't understand what it means, and our message, my message, in the talk was, that accessibility isn't necessarily what you thought, meaning, a lot of the time designers imagine, that if they solve the button, give it correct color contrast, and the text is big enough, it's cool and it's accessible, but basically, that's how I started, I said, okay, look, there are three buttons here, accessible, and there was a feeling that they know, here, this is the most accessible button, it's the accessible button — but no, it's not accessible unless you do a lot more other things to it. Okay,

Eyal David: [37:03] okay, continue, but you did something wonderful here, I'll for a second, I'll try to formalize it, at the most basic level, you started basically from the general message of the story you want to convey in the room, right, that's how you basically built your message, which is stunning, and then you say, in order to support this message, I don't know who's in the room, and what their level of understanding of accessibility is, and you wanted to be engaged basically, so you started the discussion with a very, very basic question, that's also intriguing, and everyone wants to see, but it's very basic, so no matter what background level you come from, you'll suddenly understand what I'm talking about, and what the incentive is basically to do it, so you already tailored the beginning basically, and also presented some context for the beginning. And I also wanted them to understand that maybe,

Tal Kailler: [37:41] like, that they don't understand — and accessibility a lot of the time is this, that you have a ton of things you don't know, and our message is you also don't need to know, we give you a tool, the information is inside the tool, you'll be a designer, live your day-to-day, do what you're good at, and we'll help you with the accessibility.

Eyal David: [37:59] Maybe also, you started too from that very practical, immediate value of, how can you basically incorporate it, right?

Tal Kailler: [38:06] Yes, totally, meaning, the problem — I convinced them there's a problem, I convinced them that they, maybe thought they know how to solve the problem, but it's actually broader than they thought, and then the tool,

Eyal David: [38:18] that comes to solve it. It really is a very very basic question, and also visual — if we talked about a picture, do you remember, it's exactly that. Did you get to know the audience beforehand? Like, did you prepare for this aspect, how was it?

Tal Kailler: [38:30] Yes, I prepared, we also had a booth, so a bit like, people came and I talked, and also, really, I meet all the time, I'm a ton, I'm in meetings with customers, I very very much know our target audience, and also before the talk, I went in like this, when everyone was just starting to sit down, a few minutes before, and... and I really asked, what do you expect to see here, what do you know, what do you know and don't know, yes, so like this, I got a few tips, and I started also to relate to it, later in my talk. It's really quick feedback, yes,

Eyal David: [39:05] and it's, we said, show a partner, show a grandmother, show Dina, a kindergarten teacher, get feedback, or get it, and basically, was there something you took from there, or was the feedback a flop, how was it really? Hearing what, basically what their expectations are, hearing what they came to hear, the truth is it's quite aligned with... probably also, when you... the room fills up and all, then maybe you can barely even manage to contain the feedback, but it's really, it's really, really good and smart, you tried to focus them on taking action, to do something in the end with the talk — I saw an amazing talk, is there some hook there?

Tal Kailler: [39:42] Yes. So basically, at the end of the talk, I likened the design world to a mountain. Basically the mountain has the lower part of, does this design work, and the upper part is how it works, does it work well. And we said, basically what I said, is that when a designer, regular, when he designs for a neurotypical person, without disabilities, no one comes to his boss and says, listen, my design works. Right? We want our design to be delightful, and simple, and consistent, and pleasant, and easy, and simple. And in the accessibility worlds, everyone is still, at the lower part of the mountain, of does this work. So right, it could be that I have a button, and ultimately, there's a screen reader, and I reach it, but if I have to go over 20 thousand links until I reach the checkout, it could be that I'll drop out, as a person. And then I called on everyone, come climb the mountain with me, which is not only does this work, but how does it work.

Eyal David: [40:39] Like, you said it in passing, but you did a few things here, that we can also take to ourselves. One, you created identification, which is the easiest, right? Maybe also in an interview, I can create identification with the stories I tell, and you also turned it into something easy to understand. Right? There's a mountain, it's big, everyone understands a mountain is big, and now you need to cross it.

Tal Kailler: [40:58] Right, and they're already crossing it, meaning, in the design worlds, for people with disabilities, everyone is already crossing the mountain. No one is at the bottom. You connected to their basic problem, basically. Yes, and yet the second mountain,

Eyal David: [41:10] that one, we haven't conquered yet. Listen, that's wonderful. So what feedback did you get? The truth is I got amazing feedback,

Tal Kailler: [41:17] afterwards a lot of people came to talk with us, at the booth, the sign-ups for our demo exploded, it's ultimately, really, I think people understood, that they have an unsolved problem. And that was my goal, to understand that there's a real and complex problem here, and you don't need to solve it alone, because there are tools that do it for you. Which is also important, for the whole event, it was basically a business goal,

Eyal David: [41:41] right. That led the thing, and basically you also managed to get very positive feedback. Right, a business goal,

Tal Kailler: [41:47] but also personal, I have to note, I... always dreamed of speaking at a conference that's significant, meaning, I've already gotten to be at all kinds of international conferences, but here it's really a conference that's big, significant,

Eyal David: [41:59] and to present before many people. Well, but totally we'll put a link, listen, you already put it on your LinkedIn, right? Well, on such a note, so come let's really wrap up the episode, I'll ask you a question — among all the things you've listed until now, because the conversation was fascinating in my eyes, if you refer for a second to three more months from now, and you'd want to refer to this episode, to tell some woman who's about to interview at a company, and you'd tell her, listen, this is the best takeaway you need to take from this episode — what would it be? Know how to tell the story.

Tal Kailler: [42:31] The most... to tell the story. Practice, and tell the story, what's the message? What... meaning, start with the problem, and... that you solved, how you solved it, why you solved it. That's the most important in the end,

Eyal David: [42:49] beginning, middle and end. Exactly. And focused. Focused. So we'll come out here very focused. Well, so if you've already realized basically one mountain, then basically what do you wish for yourself in five more years?

Tal Kailler: [43:02] Come on, I'm trying bigger. Maybe a keynote, keynote speaker. Huge, so I wish you that too,

Eyal David: [43:08] I wish that you'll come back to us in another year, for another episode. Come on, what fun, Tal? Really fun. How, if people want to reach you to consult? On LinkedIn, best, Tal Keiler, we'll put a link maybe. Come on, bye for now. Bye. Hi friends, thanks for listening. If you found this podcast valuable, you can subscribe, follow us, of course, for more episodes, on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or any other app. Of course, if you didn't find us on some app, I'd be glad if you write to us. We'd be very happy with five stars on any platform and that you follow us, so more listeners can be exposed to us and find the podcast. You can also find the previous episodes on any app or on the YouTube channel, we have links in the description. Until next time, come on, be efficient and bye bye.