Transcript: Hadas Sheinfeld | Takhles Episode: How Do You Break PM Loneliness with a Peer Circle?

The loneliness of product managers: from Clicktale to Google

Hadas Sheinfeld: [00:00] That's my thing. My thing is the loneliness of the product manager, woman or man. Also because I was alone for a long, long time. At Clicktale I was alone for years before we raised money, we started very, very, like, the company was, it funded itself. And I was alone, and even more than being alone, at some point I also became VP Product and sat on the management team, and I discovered that I was the only woman besides the VP HR, and the only one for whom it was the first time in that role, apart from the two founders, who really come with a different hat. And I was simply alone, and who do you consult with, really, and there are many, many things, like we talked about. Some of them are relationships, and some of them are substantive, about what you commit to, and how you build the Roadmap and so on, and how you build that whole process. And we were, I was a total kid, and no, really, I needed a lot of advice, and I was terribly, terribly alone. Now, by the way, in large organizations too, even when I got to Google and was already in a relatively senior role, I was still alone. Because everyone is busy with their own thing and has to deliver their own thing. And really, I think one of the things about Product Management, and people who move into Product Management, that always surprises them, is the amount of load. Really, it's a mental load that doesn't exist in other roles. It's lots and lots and lots of things, all the time, at different resolutions, right? There's what needs to be delivered tomorrow, and there's what's next week, and there's three months, and there's another year, and the circles are running all the time. And at Google too we were alone. I was alone, and I was looking for people all the time. Then I got to Datagen, there too I was alone. And the innovation there was so new to me. Machine Learning, selling to Machine Learning engineers. I knew how to sell to marketers, and I knew how to sell to DevOps, and I knew how to sell, but it was like a new world. All the time we're alone. Both at the level of having to solve problems and at the organizational level, right? And this story of looking for the group and who to consult with, that's the thing that saved me all these years, really. That's what saved me.

Supportive communities outside the organization

Eyal David: [01:56] So you already jumped to the end, which is great. I think that's great, because I'll say, from the moment I remember most, actually, I remember from the beginning of my career, that I realized my whole day was going to be meetings, and then I'd find myself working in the evening, and that's when I felt the loneliest, because really... And from there, I actually really remember that I started talking with other product managers, or other people who stayed late at the office.

Hadas Sheinfeld: [02:15] Great.

Eyal David: [02:15] And I started... It's also a matter of personality, I think, right? Like, if you're not someone who opens up, man or woman, then that will also hold you back in your career, I think. Because you'll keep... like that example of the product person you mentioned. So basically, let's open up for a second what you're describing, which is basically creating a kind of small communities around you, supportive communities, right? So maybe expand on that a bit.

Hadas Sheinfeld: [02:45] Finding the people you can really consult with, really open the thing up with. Many times it's more comfortable with people who aren't in your organization. Really, they're outside, but they understand the world.

Eyal David: [02:54] So maybe being at the same level is also something that kind of needs to be there? Do you need to find people who are roughly at your stage of career, for that matter, or who have already been there?

A mentor vs. a peer group

Hadas Sheinfeld: [03:07] Good question, not sure. There's a lot of talk about mentors, right? Mentors who... And I'm in favor of getting advice from anyone you can, but you need to remember that the mentor gives their own perspective. Their single one. At Clicktale, when I suddenly realized I was terribly alone, I went to the CEO and he told me, find a mentor. And also, it took time until you find what the relevant experience is, someone you have chemistry with, it's not simple. In the end I found a mentor. Amazing. He came once every two weeks, sat with me for two hours, helped me with lots and lots and lots of problems I had. And still, it was his perspective, and at some point you understand how he thinks, and what his abilities are, and where he brings things from. And that's not the same as, I think it was also when I was at Clicktale, when I was at that Product X conference, and during the break we met two other product managers, one of them spoke on stage about, I think it was about time management. We met by chance, during the break, you know, by the coffee, water, I don't know what it was, and we said, kind of in passing, we have to make ourselves a group of such and such, and then we picked up the gauntlet. And three product managers, we're roughly the same age, mothers, we worked at very different organizations, but still, we met for the first time, there was a lot, a lot of chemistry, and since then, look, it's been ten years, meeting once a month, like clockwork, and in the meantime there were job changes, affairs, kids, pregnancies, everything, and they were a crazy support group for me on every decision. And even when they weren't there, I'd think, what would this one say, and what would that one say, and so on, and it came back so, so much. That was, I think, my first support group.

Eyal David: [04:31] And then you went and created it, basically.

Hadas Sheinfeld: [04:43] And then I realized it works, and I really used it everywhere. So at Clicktale I really had a mentor, and I was, wait, uh, but at Clicktale, because I was alone as an executive and a woman, I said, okay, I need to find women executives. And I founded a forum of women executives, from many, that we're still in touch to this day. Yes, it happened.

Eyal David: [04:57] What is it? Tell us.

Hadas Sheinfeld: [04:57] No, it's a small group we founded together, when I realized I'm an executive and a woman and alone, and it bothered me terribly. And I met someone at some conference, who we also talked about it, and then we said, come on, let's start a group. And we looked for women executives who sit on the management teams of startups, of companies and so on, and that's how it came out, a gorgeous group came out, that also met once every, then there was COVID, so it was on Zoom, and also those delicate consultations, we're executives, and COVID, and there's the one who refuses to get vaccinated, and the one who refuses to come to the office, all kinds of what do we do, what do we do about it. There's a lot here, there's the legal aspect, but there's the aspect of values, and there's the aspect of who you want to be, and lots and lots of things like that that we talked about. There the discussions were really different. Then I got to Google, and I looked there too, they had just started there, there were two senior women at Google Europe, and I was the third, and we set up a kind of group of Women PM in Europe, and we really had conferences and so on, and we set up there, back then Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In Circles were fashionable, we set up a group like that, there were five of us, four of them are no longer at Google, and the group still meets.

Eyal David: [06:02] That was a Takhles episode from Product Builder. Want to hear the full conversation? Look for it in the feed, and don't forget to follow us.