Transcript: From Nuts and Bolts to Big Picture: Paid Marketing, Product Thinking and the Art of Zooming Out

Eyal David: [00:01] Hey friends, this is Eyal. You've reached Product Builder, where you can listen to the most interesting product conversations. My journey began in 2012 when I learned what product is at my startup. Since then I've worked in the industry, and since 2017 my company has been consulting for a variety of companies. My drive is to help all of us become better product people. And before we start, if you're enjoying listening to Product Builder, please rate us five stars on Spotify. It gives me great feedback that the podcast is providing you value, and it would make me really happy. So come on, let's get started! Good morning Guy, how's it going? Good morning, and all the best. Great — with us is Guy Rozman, owner of Mediaflowzz. The world is very small; we actually know each other from our time at Fiverr, so we did quite a few things together and got to work together a lot. It's a pleasure to have you here, Guy. So let's do a bit of a transition, a little context for the listener. So you actually started out in digital marketing, right?

Guy Rozman: [01:03] In some course, right? A long time ago. True, correct. Keyflow included, me too. I happened to come across a course that taught how to make money from Google AdSense. 2007, 2008. Wow, something really old, yeah. If you remember, it also talked about affiliate marketing, and all these things that really sounded like Chinese to me — I didn't know it and I wasn't in that world at all. I was more in the sales world before. What did you sell? What, sales of sales? In malls, in stores, toys, all sorts of things like that. And then I actually came to this course, which really taught digital marketing, and talked about paid marketing. And it interested me a lot, really drew me in. I started messing with it, started trying on my own to figure it out, and to make a bit of money from it. I didn't see much money from it, but I did understand that it interested me a lot, and I actually started looking for work in the field. Wow, that was amazing. You touched it right before it exploded. Really. This is before Facebook, and also Google Ads — it was really — it was called AdWords, of course. It was really at the very beginning. And I started working at a company called Keylogic, which is a very well-known and large digital agency today, but even back then they were pretty good, though it was pretty new, because it was a relatively small company. And that's actually where I got in and really started to learn — I was really junior junior. From zero. Like I didn't know anything. I barely knew Excel. So there it was really a school. I learned Excel, also Google AdWords, later there was also Facebook, and also advertising. I mean advertising, marketing, all the thinking about the customer. So really everything, from zero.

Eyal David: [02:49] That's actually interesting, and it'll surely catch on for us later — you said the thinking about the customer, so it's that— your first job was actually as a consultant, a consultant — we'll actually encounter this, really in more strategic thinking, later in the episode, I think. So you got tools there, you're saying, that stay with you to this day. Absolutely. What do you think is the thing you got there that you most take with you to this day?

Guy Rozman: [03:17] First thing, it's the really technical, professional knowledge. Like how to get into an account, go to advertising, and work in it. That was really the most basic working tool there is. So that's one thing. On the other hand, it's the most detail-oriented, the most Excel-heavy, and looking for things that work well, and data analysis, and everything related to that. And on the other hand, really pausing to look at the broader picture too. To understand the client's needs, what the client's goals are, how I connect all this technical work, and the Excel sheets I do behind the scenes, and then come and present it,

Eyal David: [03:58] and create value for the client in the real world, which is the business world. Lovely. So along the way you also summed up the two reasons why I thought this episode would turn out really well, which is why I invited you, which is essentially — you could say, also for many product managers, and in general — this aspect is missing, of understanding for a second how the nuts and bolts work, how the advertising world even works, how customers are brought to us, so we can really talk about that. And the second thing, which I think you're really good at, is essentially strategic thinking, and also that transition between broad and narrow, in a very fast and smooth way. So excellent. So let's continue quickly through the bio, so from there, what's the long story short — when did you get to Fiverr, was it after Keylogic?

Guy Rozman: [04:40] After Keylogic I was there a few years, I managed the media department there, it developed, grew, and at some point I got an offer from Fiverr, to come and essentially be there, Head of Seller Acquisition, which was a very interesting role, and also very different from what I'd done before. And essentially here I had my first touch with product, and getting to know product people. Before that I hadn't gotten to work with product people, only with marketing, and it was very interesting, because I was essentially exposed here to a fascinating world, and to people who are, first of all, very thorough in their thinking, it — it was very beautiful, like, to sit with product people, like you and like other good people, who were here at Fiverr, and to understand, you know, how you think about things, how every small change, in a button — but also every bigger change too that could be in the product — changes behavior, changes the results, in the end. It comes down to that in the end. Yes, the conversion, the design of behavior. Essentially in digital products you're trying to design a certain behavior in the users who arrive, and for every decision — I remember real discussions here, over every small decision, there are discussions, what about this way, what about that way — it was very very interesting, like, even the intellectual level, it's simply fascinating. And I connected to it a lot, and in this role I also very much needed the collaboration with product, because there was no budget for me, so I had to be very creative in how I rally the product people to realize some vision of, okay, let's make a better experience for this audience, the people who sell on Fiverr. Let's see how we bring better people, let's see how we identify, very quickly, who's good on the platform and who's less good, whom we push more and whom we push less. Which is so much in the nuts and bolts of the company, right? Really. And on the other hand, it's hard to push it, because on the other hand, if it's not those who pay — at that time they weren't the ones paying, right, the whole focus in the marketing department is on the buyers, because the buyers put down the money and buy, but the supply side was essentially unmanaged; people were let in, and whoever succeeded, succeeded, but we understood that among all the people who come in, and the thousands of people who want to sell on Fiverr, there's quality — meaning there are people who are more high-quality, who give better service, who are real professionals at what they do, and there are those who are less so, and the marketplace's interest is absolutely to promote the professionals, and to give them the exposure, at least the initial exposure, to give them a chance — that was mainly the story at that time. Really, in the company's paths, and essentially from Fiverr — which really was a pleasure to work together — so from there? From Fiverr I moved to be here, and essentially here I went back more to the role of Paid Acquisition Manager, with a budget, and with several channels, that we developed there, and there too was a very very nice and interesting period, working on several advertising channels, and working with a lot of — with the creative and the design, and really understanding what kind of leads, or what kind of customers we want to attract, with which messages we want to attract them, on which platform we want to attract them, and a very deep connection to the business, like seeing in the end this budget we have, the leads we brought, how many of them became customers, how it returns exactly, exactly, and also conversations, and a lot of analyses, and really working with all the go-to-market departments, as it's called, and also a very very interesting period, with very very big growth, and there too, stunning,

Eyal David: [08:17] I remember the numbers, really impressive achievements, so really, there was also close work there,

Guy Rozman: [08:23] with the product department, I assume, right? So essentially here there was less touch with product, but yes, there was a growth team, that sat within product, and yes, they were absolutely dealing with the funnels, they also built the self-serve there, at a certain period, so yes, there was a connection, also very strong. Cool, and then from there essentially, after that you moved to be, VP Marketing, right? Yes, I was VP Marketing at a company called, GMAT prep courses, okay? And there essentially, as VP Marketing — it's a pretty small company, so absolutely, I saw myself as VP Marketing and product, in the end, in some sense, product more in the sense of the funnel, like really taking responsibility for the funnel that these people go through, people sign up, I remember that— So you brought in a friend for this. Exactly, and then you came to help me, essentially with the conversion rate, improving the conversion rate in the funnel,

Eyal David: [09:21] and I remember we went down to resolutions like, okay, how many days will the trial be? Will it be three days or seven days? Maybe one day? Like a lot of conversations like that, about the experience. And how does the sign-up look, right? How does the sign-up look, how much does each thing cost, what's the funnel the user goes through, like which emails he receives, when he receives the emails. What's the first thing he sees, does he now see theory, that he goes and essentially tests himself, right? Exactly, what's the course,

Guy Rozman: [09:48] what's the onboarding flow — we also worked on that a lot. So really beyond marketing, of which messages and which audience we bring, and which traffic we bring, it was a ton of work on the experience the person goes through, who essentially arrived at the platform,

Eyal David: [10:02] until in the end, hopefully, they buy the course. Cool. So essentially you worked with a lot of — you could say, a decade went by like that. Yes. And then essentially, the long story short — you actually worked with many product people along the way, on many products, also B2C.

Guy Rozman: [10:17] From there you essentially started Mediaflowzz, and Mediaflowzz — do you want to tell in a few words? Yes, absolutely. So Mediaflowzz I started, you know, as a one-man show, a bit of consulting and a bit of doing, and over time I understood that really my forte, and what I want to get into more, is the world of paid marketing, and essentially advertising. And from there I started to recruit a team, and to recruit clients. In recent years we've worked with a very wide range of clients; we particularly focus on working with startups, and tech companies that address a global market. We've gotten to work with companies like Payoneer, and like Anyword, Nexar, and many others, good ones, that we work with. And essentially we take them and build them some process, of Customer Acquisition, which has several stages — we can talk about that too — but broadly that's what we do right now. And we work with many very interesting companies, and this past year it's mainly companies doing AI for something, and essentially we come and help them with the whole topic of Customer Acquisition,

Eyal David: [11:17] and essentially growth of the business. Yes, exactly. So you're really very connected to the numbers too, you could say, for whoever's looking, so highly recommended. So really, let's touch on this — so you've gotten to work with many product departments, with many product people over time. What do you think are the skills that you think are the most important in a product person?

Guy Rozman: [11:39] Good question. I think the good product people I worked with, first of all, had some, let's call it a vision, or they saw in their mind's eye some ideal state, some ideal product. They had a very very good understanding, on the other hand, of the numbers too. They knew how to connect this vision they have, of what product they want to create, with some very deep connection to the business, to the numbers, to user behavior, to what will happen. And once they know, you know, how to take a vision, connect it to the numbers, and then build some process of, okay, this is the roadmap essentially, these are the things that need to happen — then it works very very nicely, and I think also, very important, that's important for product, some leadership ability, to lead, essentially to lead the team, to rally the people who will believe in the vision, especially, say, if it's developers, designers, like it's very important to show them, like, I think, from how I see it, what your vision is, and what you want to happen, and then they really get on board, and essentially do what they need to do to make it happen. So essentially,

Eyal David: [12:54] essentially what you're claiming is that you're looking for someone pretty much like you, who essentially knows how to go from the strategy, from the vision essentially, again, to the narrow, and yes, to be very connected to the business, and also a great communicator.

Guy Rozman: [13:08] Sorry for all the English. I think that, you know, for a product manager, it's really a role that is, like, he sits among many, many other people who do things that are more technical, and he needs both the technical understanding, and the business understanding, and the marketing understanding — in the end he builds a product for someone. So yes, it's a lot of abilities, and to know how to look at all of it a bit from high level, and again, and to get people to, like, connect to it,

Eyal David: [13:35] and do it. And that's very true, because there really are many product managers who don't — they somewhat ignore, don't know, as a rule, but there's somewhat an ignoring — I was like that once too — ignoring the business side, and it's so, so — in the end we're building a company, we're building something. And falling in love with some product, or some idea. Yes, exactly. That's how I was at my startup, how do you say, we were young, and you know, let's build a travel app, without a clear business model, and see what happens. So that's a point I connect to a lot. So let's touch on the things we actually thought to talk about. Let's talk for a second, essentially, how do you bring — the most basic — we'll do a really short feel on this, how do you today bring users to a product? What does it look like? Really into the details. Yes. Okay, so first,

Guy Rozman: [14:22] it's a big topic, and it also very much depends on the stages of the company or the product. What we do — we deal with paid advertising. Paid advertising is usually on Google, LinkedIn, Meta. And then what we do, we use money, okay? Within a certain budget, to buy traffic, to bring people, to the site, to the product, to a landing page, whatever, and get them to do something. Leave a lead, sign up, or purchase. And we try to do this in the most efficient way there is. I think efficiency is the name of the game, certainly in the last year or two, because before that, there was essentially a stage of hyper-growth, where companies invested a ton of money in growth, and essentially in the last year or two, most companies are moving to a kind of state of focusing on efficiency, and this is where we come into the game, because wasting money on advertising is very easy, anyone can do it easily, but what you must do, is essentially connect this investment to the numbers of the business, and see what really moves the needle, like which ads, or which campaigns, really move the needle, and drive business growth. So let's really, in a few words, you now come to work with a company — what does the process look like? Okay, so essentially how I see it, in the service we provide, which is a Customer Acquisition service, that's composed of four stages, the first stage is Research, very deep research,

Eyal David: [15:56] research, first thing — and I think also, Guy, it's worth me noting, this is you too, Guy, that we got to — you do pretty product-oriented research too, beyond market research, when you look at competitors and such, and this really surprised me — you also go deep into the funnel, to understand the company's core,

Guy Rozman: [16:11] and really also offer product suggestions along the way. Absolutely, look, we essentially have a marketing brief we created, which is a very long questionnaire, that we need to fill out together with the company we're going to work with, and in it we get all the information, now this is very comprehensive information, meaning it's about the market, also what you've done until now, also about the product, about the product's stages, also about sales, what happens in the sales process. Many times these are companies that collect leads, or companies that collect leads through the product, and there's sales involvement, so you need to understand what happens there too. Because you depend on them to close the loop. Absolutely. I need a person, I also want to sell to him. Absolutely, I need that — either the product converts and brings the sales, or there are salespeople who close the loop, or many times it's a combination. It can be a start in the product, but there are salespeople who at some stage enter the process. You need to understand the process, you need to, like, characterize it, and understand, see that it even works. So that's the initial stage, the Research stage, which also includes a stage of competitor research, keyword research, audience research, etc. etc. In the end, for me, it ends with some media plan. What budget we take, and how we divide it, across the various channels. It could be search, it could be social, whatever. That's the first stage. After we built this and decided, then we enter the stage of building or creating. Here we essentially really build. We build the ads, we build the messages, we build the videos, if there are any, whatever it is, and the structure, and the architecture of the campaign. How it looks on each platform. Here too, we can get into this more, and there are many nuances, but broadly, that's the stage. Once we build, we put it live, we start to run. We start to spend money, start to get traffic, start to get feedback, essentially. And then we enter a stage that's ongoing, that doesn't end — it's optimization. We get feedback from the world. This is the machine, essentially. This is the machine. The machine starts to run, and all the time you need to improve the machine. Because all the time you learn new things. There are inputs that come in, by the way, also from the product, also from sales. Meaning, it could be that now we understood that feature X sells better, helps sales sell more than feature Y. So okay, so let's take and do some campaign on this feature. To check if marketing it also brings results. Exactly, we'll try to bring more sales out of this feature. By the way, many times it happens that in campaigns you really highlight some particular feature, and then people come who want that same feature, but they don't necessarily want the whole product. And then there's also some problem here, that there's no fit between what we're marketing and what we're selling. That can happen too. Which again, without a really deep understanding, you probably won't understand this. If you're just essentially running campaigns. Cool, so we went through all the stages.

Eyal David: [19:05] You touched here on a very interesting point, so we really touched on the product, on the various products you get to encounter. So come on, if you can share — you've really seen many different products in recent years. Are there some problems

Guy Rozman: [19:19] that you can identify, cardinal or common ones, that essentially recur in products over time? Look, I think this matter of many times companies and product managers, and in general, build a lot of features, that the users don't necessarily use. That's one thing I see. And then essentially it also confuses the marketing a bit, because like what exactly are you talking about, and also it's maybe less efficient, because you invest a whole lot of energy in building and maintaining a lot of features that don't necessarily

Eyal David: [19:54] bring in the money, in the end. Probably, as you say, it also confuses the user in their journey.

Guy Rozman: [20:00] Yes. And again, there's also the matter here of, it could be that someone is very interested in a certain feature you built, but he doesn't necessarily want all the rest of the features, and then what do you do? Because you want to sell some product also at a certain price, and to give more value, but somehow users only want this small thing that gives less value. So here too there's some problem. And then you need to do a very deep cracking of the audience, and understand what he really — what he really wants, and maybe sometimes there's a kind of disconnect — it happens both in marketing and in product, I think — from the persona, from the audience, from the ICP, however you want to call it, and you don't always speak in his language. That's something very problematic in marketing. Many times you have companies that speak in some marketing language, that marketers love — boost, efficiency, scale, and all sorts of words like that, nice ones, but it's not the language that, for the sake of argument, the IT guy we're targeting speaks. A completely different language. And the same thing happens in product, meaning, it could be that product wants to do something very nice and very slick, but again, you're speaking to some IT guy, who's not interested in that at all, he only needs the solution, which can also look very bad, but it really solves his problem, okay? And he feels that someone is solving a problem for him. So I think there's this disconnect, and you need to find ways to bridge this gap. Between what you plan

Eyal David: [21:24] in the room, and what actually happens. And when you enter companies, and this thing really happens, these things happen, so essentially do you think they get exposed, or like when they come up to the table, because you bring them up, but does it happen because suddenly now you've come in and done deep research, because essentially they started pouring money on the thing — what's essentially the thing

Guy Rozman: [21:46] that brings the spotlight to the table on these problems? So first, yes, many times when you bring in someone from outside for a moment, he points out to you all sorts of dark corners, simply blind spots, that you didn't notice, so that's absolutely it. Right? And besides that, I think there's a process that I do, that I think everyone should do, which is — the thing that most helps me connect to the audience is simply to read the audience, meaning, to read — usually that's reviews, meaning, if I can look at reviews of companies we work with, or of competitors, and really analyze them deeply, and see which words people use to describe their experience with similar products — that's the best way, and of course there are other ways, you can do interviews with users, you can do user testing, which is something we did a lot at Fiverr, at that time, of that same person who now goes through some flow that you built, but you think it's good — but in this user testing, you essentially discover all the failures, or all the things — it could be there are good things, you discover what's good and what's not, and it simply gives you a glimpse into

Eyal David: [22:55] really the mind of your persona. That's it, that's an excellent practice, and a practice that's even simple, that we did not long ago with a client, you and I, it should be said — we simply took the company, a pretty big company, we essentially took all that they had, because they're essentially very big, we threw it into ChatGPT, to get the sentiments that recur the most, and then we presented to them, okay, look, these are the things people most look for from you, which turned out to be better customer support altogether, a refund policy that's better at competitors, like precisely these things that they hadn't even thought about, so we knew, like, to highlight these things. Yes, it's always surprising, you'll always discover things you didn't think of, and and let's move on for a second, really, come share with us, because I think you do this excellently, the practices, the thought process you do, really, in the transition between strategic, broad thinking, and narrow thinking,

Guy Rozman: [23:54] and maybe also talk about strategic thinking, how you even approach the thing. Look, I think strategic thinking, which you really can define and see in all sorts of ways — broadly I think it's more thinking about the what or the why, and less thinking about the how. Detail thinking is more how I do something, but strategic thinking is what I even want to achieve or why I want to achieve it. Now, I think that by tendency, everyone has some tendency. There are people who by their tendency are big picture and really think at a high level like that, and there are people who are very in the detail — those are very Excel people, very much love data and very much love the nuts and bolts and to dig and to build. I think my tendency is absolutely to be in the nuts and bolts and to be in the doing, but on the other hand, what I did — I developed for myself all sorts of habits or all sorts of methods that essentially force me for a moment to take a step back and look at what we're doing and see it more from high level. So for me, in the process, this happens in several places. First, it happens in the initial brief with the client. Like in the questions I ask, it forces me for a moment to look at it from above and understand better the big picture we're in. And in our work process, on the projects we work on, we also have to do this zoom-out once a week. We do some presentation that essentially shows also the results of what we achieved until now, month to date, week over week, in all sorts of ways of looking at the data, and also — the structure is such that we have results, insights, and next steps. Once we work in a structure like that, we have to take a step back for a moment, because otherwise, from all the trees we won't see the forest.

Eyal David: [25:37] Smooth, smooth, yes. Tell me, so how can you project this onto product, because you took this now to a place that's very funnel-oriented, very analytical. Essentially there are numbers that are very easy to present and not distill an insight from them. Now really, in ongoing product work, say, it could be that in the last week not too much happened, so how would you still port this for a moment to more strategic thinking,

Guy Rozman: [26:01] with this anchor? With this method you mentioned? So first, it could be that in a week not much happened, but in a month probably a lot did happen, so it could be that once a month you need to do this zoom-out, and again we said that when you build product you need to connect it to the numbers in the end, you don't do it for the sake of heaven, so even if it's once every two weeks or once a month, go outside for a moment and look at it, although I also must say that yes, there are always certain KPIs that even on a daily level you can look at. I'm so happy to go along with you.

Eyal David: [26:32] Really okay, and this is one anchor you create for yourself, one method. By the way, before we continue, are these essentially things you developed based on things you read, heard, or did it simply arise from the force of reality?

Guy Rozman: [26:43] Look, it could be things I read and adopted, so I can't tell you that I read a book that said this is what you should do, I'm trying to tell you, if there's any — so no, there isn't one single book, it's a lot of trial and error and a lot of experience and a lot of books and a lot of knowledge of others, that in the end you know, I took it all, a lot and a lot, and created from it — or again, things that I learned, for example I learned that it's worth meeting and talking about the project once a week, because things always come up along the way, so, and if you talk about it once a month then the learning simply won't stop and the progress won't stop. Right. Okay, do you have additional ideas, additional methods that you adopted for yourself? I think also by virtue of the fact that I work with clients, but this is also true for whoever works in an organization, because they always have a manager — once you come and you need to present your work to someone and you need to explain, certainly to someone who's not from your field, what you do, it forces you to go up, because you can't give him the details; if you're the product manager you won't talk to a product manager and explain to him. In the language he understands, no, you'll talk with the VP or with the CEO, you have to talk to him in terms that are more, first of all, more connected to the business, okay, which is essentially the unifying thread among everyone, and essentially you'll have to simplify, you'll have to simplify the concepts, the language, yes, the terminology you use, in a way that will be much clearer, so it forces you to be much sharper in your thinking, and that's something that's hard, not everyone manages to do it. Many times, with people who are, for the sake of argument, marketing managers who are younger, they'll come and talk with the client or with the CEO in their language, and then they'll lose attention very quickly.

Eyal David: [28:30] It somewhat reminds — brings us back to that guy you can talk to, like we talked about user interviews, that there too you essentially need to lower yourself, in order to essentially receive, and in this case to convey the information. Yes, absolutely. And I remember you in another, in another, in some other thing, always also in meetings that are very

Guy Rozman: [28:48] detail-oriented. Absolutely, many times really in conversations there's a tendency for people to get into a point and start digging into it too much, to the point that there's no value in the discussion anymore, so many times really in conversations they, hold on, drop it, we got the point, let's put it aside for a moment, we'll come back to it, let's go up for a moment, what are we even doing here, what's our goal of the whole thing. I'm also very sensitive to people's time in meetings and to effectiveness in meetings — if a meeting can be done in a quarter of an hour I prefer that, rather than doing it in three-quarters of an hour; I'll never fill the time just for the sake of it. And this, by the way, also happens to me a lot in meetings I do with the folks we work with — we usually put half an hour in the calendar, we do it in a quarter of an hour, because we also come very prepared, a very clear agenda, these are the things we'll talk about, these are the things that happen, okay. Because we don't want to waste it. Look, that's how it's always best to work together. Something else on strategic thinking? Do you have another tip on this aspect? I don't think I have anything specific, again these are really things that for me are — it's maybe even easier for you to see it, because for me these are already things that are very built-in. And it's simply a lot of procedures and methods of one kind or another that I use to essentially do this and remember, like, what our goal is.

Eyal David: [30:17] And deal less only with the details and only with how we do things. So come on, let's deal with the details — come on, give us maybe a few more tips you'll pull out for us on meetings, because I saw you really want to, and we'll continue on.

Guy Rozman: [30:28] Again it's really short, broadly it's also, it's also pretty basic, so maybe everyone knows this, but when you arrive at meetings, first of all come with an agenda, first of all come with what you want to get out of this meeting. This is important a lot, and sometimes it doesn't happen, sometimes people go into a meeting because there's a meeting. And of course after a meeting that there's a summary and there are action items, it's really easy, right, like there are already automatic things, absolutely clear. Another thing by the way, is really — we always record all the conversations, which helps a lot also when someone isn't in the conversation, and by the way, maybe you don't need to invite him to the conversation, but maybe it is worth him seeing the recording, because it could be that at minute twenty-two we talked about something relevant to him, so many times we'll send recordings of conversations and say, okay, look at this minute. Another thing that you,

Eyal David: [31:11] really, I also of course took this — is that you arrive at every meeting with a presentation, it's not only that there's the agenda, the agenda is also written in the presentation, but you also prepare homework, you also come very baked for this moment, that okay, you start to talk, boom, here, here's the place where we already get into the nitty-gritty.

Guy Rozman: [31:27] By the way, on presentations, that's something I really need to give credit to Keylogic for, and mainly to Alon Breiner who was CEO of Keylogic for some period, and essentially from him I learned about how the format of a presentation can very much distill ideas, and by the way he really is a person. On big-picture thinking, you know, someone who was VP of Strategy, that's what he does, so I think from him I learned a lot about the importance of this thing, and really how to apply it, because someone who comes precisely, like, from below, from the work and from the doing itself of the campaigns — how to integrate it, so yes, that's another something I integrated.

Eyal David: [32:04] Cool. A new question we're adding — what do you wish for Guy in ten years?

Guy Rozman: [32:11] Ah, look, I wish him more — I want to say more of the same, because overall the place I'm in today is a place that for me is very good and happy, so I want to continue at this pace, to do things that interest me, to talk with people I enjoy being with, of course to be with my family which is the greatest joy in my life, so more of that, and you know, more challenges, more interesting things.

Eyal David: [32:39] Cool. Tell me, in the age of AI, if you look forward, what impact do you see that in the short term it will have on your field.

Guy Rozman: [32:50] The impact is of course infinite, much of the impact is still far off, we don't even see it yet. It's already around us in everything, that we already understand, what I think a lot of people — we'll feel that it's probably more and more significant, even if you're not going to be an AI expert, and even if you're not going to code or write code. I think you'll feel it all the time. More and more, so even if you don't do anything it's happening, and of course the more you bring into your work methods more use of AI tools, for the sake of argument the marketing brief today, whoever we work with answers it for me, but in practice ChatGPT can probably already do 50% of the work, so bring in more and more practices that are very accessible, you know, to everyone since the big revolution of GenAI from a year or two ago when ChatGPT started, it's simply very accessible, so like, I don't know, the internet is accessible to all of us, AI is accessible to all of us, and of course there'll be more tools and more things, you know, I'm humble, I'm not some AI genius, but there's no doubt this is something we'll feel more and more, and we'll bring it in whether we want to or not, so we'd better start it already now. Steal reports maybe too, and things like that — these are things that... Reports, data analysis, there are tons and tons and tons and tons of use cases where... I say, anyone who works in a job like ours — take your work, break it down into its factors, AI can probably enter in a whole lot of places already now. It's funny because, like, for us as freelancers it's really obvious and really — it's totally good. I know you listen to a lot of books, I don't know what happens, do you have some recommendations? First I'll say that I really recommend reading or listening — whatever it'll be, running, the right way to do it is either on walks or on runs or on the train, like on the way here. On the way here. Or to really sit and read, like there's also in my view real importance to sitting and reading a real book, and really there are a lot of things I read, I — I want maybe — I don't have something specific I want to recommend, because really there's everything and everyone. What's the best book you've read? Honestly, there is one book that I think stands out, which is Rework by the folks who made Basecamp, that essentially they talk about how to work efficiently, broadly. And it's in my opinion a book that very much influenced me — my company is a company that is work-from-anywhere, so we work remote-only, and that forces you to be very efficient and very smart in how you design the company's behavior, because you don't sit with people in an office and now all the time can talk with one another. So you also need to build work processes, you also need to build some culture around this thing, it's very challenging and interesting, so I think this is really one of the things that very much helped me think about how you work, meaning not only

Eyal David: [35:40] to do work but also to design how you do things. Lovely, Guy, thank you very much, what a joy that you came, and whoever wants to get in touch with Guy — LinkedIn, LinkedIn is the best place, you can also search for us on the internet, mediaflowzz.com, but connect with me on LinkedIn, Guy Rozman, simplest. Cool, come on, thanks Guy. Thanks friends. Thanks, bye bye. Friends, thank you for listening. If you found this podcast valuable, you can subscribe and follow us. Of course, for more episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or any other app — of course if you didn't find us on some app, I'd be happy for you to write to us. We'd be very happy for five stars on any platform, and for you to follow us so that more listeners can be exposed to us and find the podcast. You can also find the previous episodes on any app or on the YouTube channel — we have links in the description. Until next time, come on, be efficient, and bye bye.