Transcript: Product vs. UX in the Age of AI — Yishai Cohen on Human Empowerment by Design

Eyal David: [00:00] Hi everyone, this is Eyal — you've reached Product Builder, where you can listen to the most interesting product conversations. My journey began in 2012 when I learned what product is at my startup; since then I've worked in the industry, and since 2017 my company has been consulting for a range of companies. My drive is to help all of us improve as product people. And before we start — if you enjoy listening to Product Builder, please rate us five stars on Spotify. It'll give me great feedback that the podcast is giving you value, and it would make me very happy. So let's go, we're starting! Hello Yishai, how are you? Great, great — I'm here. How great that you joined. You came to us from the north. Yeah, even though it's easy — usually from here it's downhill. And you found parking too — one of my superpowers, finding parking in Tel Aviv. Although the moment I say that, it means next time we'll have to pay for parking. I'm not buying it. Anyway — Yishai came to us, who is actually a UX lead, and also a lecturer. What else am I forgetting? A mentor at Google — Google for Startups, the global one.

Yishai Cohen: [01:08] Like Google Launchpad, which is a lot of fun. I've been doing it for 13 years now, and I'm a dad.

Eyal David: [01:15] Which means an apology in advance — there'll be dad jokes here, and we'll accept that. And beyond that, you're also a UX expert.

Yishai Cohen: [01:23] Let's say yes — so 20 years in the UX field, with a bachelor's and master's degree, and... it's a field that's constantly changing. Being a UX expert mostly means saying 'I don't know.' So give us

Eyal David: [01:37] a short half-minute spiel a bit about your career journey — what actually brings you to the place where we're now standing to talk about UX and AI. I did my bachelor's and master's in Holland.

Yishai Cohen: [01:51] So just to date it — there was no YouTube yet when I finished. And Nice — I worked at all kinds of companies, both there and here in Israel. Also at consulting firms, at project-based companies, and in-house. Also as a freelancer — meaning I did a whole range. In recent years I moved more to the management side, when I discovered that... I know how to lead people who do the work better than I do. And... yeah, it... it helped me a lot to be a manager. I worked, as I said, I was also a freelancer — a pretty bad freelancer, because I couldn't turn it into a business, so I moved to product companies. I worked at Traxs, I worked at Firma, I managed a team of five or six people there that ended up as 20 — wow — and there too you got exposed to tons of products. Yes, and at a project company you learn to work very, very fast, to split your attention, to know when to focus on something, when to work, when to let go — it's also tons of products, tons of companies, and also knowing how to juggle. A very, very fun period — mainly it advanced my management skills. The strategic abilities. And I think in many ways it also taught me to be a kind of product person, and we'll touch later on why it's a kind of product and not product — I'm not... I think we need to be precise about what product is, but it really tightened for me the matter of knowing how to prioritize, where to put attention, what needs to be done at that moment, and whom to send to execute it. And also to tell a story — I remember that one of your clients too... first of all, saying this is very, very arrogant, but telling a story is something I always had; but yes, telling it in a sharp way is something that improved. I don't know if I'm good at it yet — we'll see if we keep to time — but yes, knowing how to explain to people who work with us and to explain to clients, it starts from the sales stage of a project. And also when you're inside a product company you sell a feature as a product — you know this too, we'll touch on it later — that ability to sell the feature and its importance to the company and to the users is a very important ability of the product person. So storytelling — knowing how not to focus on the technology but to focus on what this thing does for people — is an ability... that I'm glad I have, and I'm very glad it got sharpened at a project company, because it also helps me at product companies, with product and with development, etc.

Eyal David: [05:06] Cool. And from there you were actually able to also understand — you were able in parallel to function as a lead, as a lecturer, as a UX person, and now you've actually gone back to being a consultant too. From your perspective — that's a question we love. I ask here, from your perspective across all the products and companies you've been through, what are the skills you think are the most, you know, the most important in a product manager? You said there are all kinds of types of product manager, so pick one and really drill in there.

Yishai Cohen: [05:40] I think product managers — I'll say first the obvious one, the absence of ego. But that's like saying 'I'm good with people' — nobody ever showed up and said, other than being 'good people,' 'I'm good at everything.' I think the central internal ability is knowing how to distinguish between — as a true PM — what I want to do, what I love to do, and what needs to be done for the product.

Eyal David: [06:13] And to give it the priority. And the ego thing too — you're actually bringing it maybe specifically from the UX side, right? Because I remember from other conversations.

Yishai Cohen: [06:24] Through the ability to argue, to debate. There's a Jewish saying, one way or another, that says 'a knife is only sharpened on the thigh of its fellow.' Rabbi Chanina said it. So what does it mean? It means that the argument helps us also show whether I'm right — the argument, the fact that I have to justify, gives me more arguments for why I'm right. And on the other hand, if I have no arguments, if I don't have the ability to explain, to prove, or to say what will happen if we choose one thing or another, then probably the other side is right. Now, if I have an ego, then at some stage I'll exert authority — not good — 'I'm the product manager, I need this to get done, I have no time to explain.' Someone without an ego knows how to listen and hear. 'I don't really know how to explain why, I just want this feature to happen' — that's not good.

Eyal David: [07:23] 'It seems cool to me, it seems important to me' — that might also override conversations with users, conversations, as you say, with team members. Okay, so — the moment there's no ego, then both when an idea comes that seems good to you and when an idea comes that seems bad to you, you'll run a discussion about it, and in the end you'll make a decision that isn't driven by it having been my idea as product manager or someone else's idea,

Yishai Cohen: [07:53] but rather by what's good for the product's users and therefore good for the product.

Eyal David: [07:59] Another skill you actually want to talk about?

Yishai Cohen: [08:04] So we talked about this debate ability and the ability to separate. And in the end, I think the external ability is to move people through challenge. That's an ability that's also very, very similar to UX — we'll also talk about the parallel between UX and product in many places — but the ability to move people not out of authority but out of challenging is very important. I think the place where it's most expressed is specifically working with development. Developers are people who love challenges. Nobody got into development because they want to write code — they're people who love solving problems. If you come to a developer and tell her, 'Put in this and that option for me,' she'll resist. The resistance will be somewhere between 'this will take time' or she'll tell you 'sure, that's seven months of development.' But if you come to a developer and say 'I saw this thing, I'd love for us to have it too,' or 'how can we solve this problem — users complain that it takes a very long time for pages to load, what can we do?' — then you presented a problem, and instead of that the developer's mind — 'I'd love to solve it.' If you tell the developer 'replace the servers so it's faster,' then what's left for her to do? Even if you're right,

Eyal David: [09:30] what's left to do — just carry out your instructions. You connected this a bit similarly to the previous point, because if I have no ego then I can actually come to this place.

Yishai Cohen: [09:40] Yeah, so another thing I didn't say in the intro is that I come from two martial arts. One is Aikido, which is a martial art of joining, not coming from ego — if... if... if I complete and move to reach some balance — martial arts that to this day haven't helped me in any real situation, except for driving and... and it's cardio, and it's a martial art much more about a person's approach, because yes. But yes, I think the absence of ego — and thinking 'I only manage the product, and I'm a sheepdog' —

Eyal David: [10:17] is very important for success. So I want to — let's now take half a minute and talk about the most important points in the difference between product and UX.

Yishai Cohen: [10:29] I think a lot of times I also hear a lot of product people who say 'I do UX.' We'll touch shortly on whether that's true or not. And there are also a lot of my friends, colleagues who do UX, who actually say 'we do product.' But I'll say the first thing that distinguishes it is who matters to you. As a UX person I represent the users. As product you represent the product. For the sake of argument, product can say 'we'll bring 30,000 users to show growth.' 'We'll publish them something they don't need, and they'll leave us, I know. But we'll show the growth, and that's what we need so the product gets some investment.' As UX, I don't agree — I can't bring users and give them something they don't need, something they don't want, something that because of it they'll be disappointed with the product. I can't. The decision in the end will be the product's. So that, I think, is the essential difference. And from it a few more things are derived. One — in the end, what interests the product? The product cares that a certain thing works at a certain time. That's the test. UX looks at other things. Product, at the end of the day, has to do a lot of negotiation. Horse-trading, you could say. With a lot of other parties. With development, with marketing, maybe HR. With all kinds of things, so that something gets done at a certain time. UX, once there are the conclusions from the research and the solution and so on — that's it. Now it needs to get done. But in the end, in the end, in the end, the responsibility is the product manager's, over the product. And therefore it's an abysmal difference. At the end of the day, whoever has to write the ticket — in Jira, or in his other product that took me in, and therefore I won't mention its name — whoever wrote the tickets and then the next morning has to run around and ask what's going on with this ticket — that's not UX. And that's a refinement we'll award a prize for. There's product — great, but in the past there's UX — great, it helped me sharpen. At the end of the day, UX doesn't run. Doesn't run

Eyal David: [13:21] for the implementation. And that's an essential everyday difference. But look — yes, I accept what you're saying — but there are product people who do UX at a very high level. Now the question is this: what does a product person who wants to sharpen their UX abilities need to do, in your opinion?

Yishai Cohen: [13:38] So first of all, I'll go back to what I said at the beginning — of what I want to do, what I love to do, and what needs to be done. When we talk — first of all, why does product need to do UX? Would you ask a developer the question 'what does product need to do to sharpen its development abilities'?

Eyal David: [14:02] No, I'll ask it from the other direction — sorry to interrupt. There are smaller companies that don't have the resource to take on both roles. Let's say there's now a product manager working there and he wants to sharpen his UX abilities in order to create, as you say, the better experience, the better product.

Yishai Cohen: [14:16] Okay. So let's sharpen that UX — as you know they say about light that it's both wave and matter — so UX can be a mindset and a practice. UX can be a mindset that what should drive the decisions is, in the end, how satisfied users will be with the product.

Eyal David: [14:35] So what you're talking about is the UX mindset that the product manager has.

Yishai Cohen: [14:42] Okay. So if a product manager says 'I want to be more believing in and practicing the mindset of users, or user-centered design and so on,' then I need to introduce routines — meaning, how often do I meet with users, how often does the team meet with users, with the opinions, with — with the data that accumulates from the users. And this needs to be one of the routines, because there are many routines in Agile and all kinds of things like that, so there needs to be this routine that no matter what. I once worked at a company and a very good product person who worked there told me 'listen, I've been here two years and I've never once talked with users.'

Eyal David: [15:32] Not good. What flags go up for you? So that's the first thing. Second thing —

Yishai Cohen: [15:41] try to base. Base everything on research. Okay. When I talk about basing on research — of course you can do very, very meticulous research, but for the good 80% — God gave us AI. Okay. So really you can do a lot through AI today — you can ask all the AI agents and ask them to behave like an average user of this thing, and then to summarize research that's been shown about this thing. You always have to challenge it, but it gives some routine of thinking from the perspective of users and not from the perspective of which feature we want, but rather which feature the users want, the customers want. That's what's important. So we said: introduce routines. Two: use tools. In this place AI really helps. Let me stop you for a moment and open a parenthesis.

Eyal David: [16:55] I know you can — what other, what other uses of AI, because — you said it and I already said hi. So basically, in the role of a UXer today, what things can actually make life easier with the use of AI? What things do you see? First of all — while we're recording, it's about two or three days after the huge Figma conference

Yishai Cohen: [17:16] where they changed tons and tons of things. In general Figma, a player that changed — that made tectonic changes in the work of UX and product and UX and UI and so on. Because suddenly it's very, very easy to produce what used to be considered the deliverables of UX. Figma is a great example of a tool that changes the way of work and therefore also changes the profession. First of all, because Figma really made the easiest — the work, or what's perceived as the work. Even though it's only the deliverable of UX and UI people. What do I mean? In the past the easiest tool to show how you want something to behave was PowerPoint. I remember I used to get a PowerPoint presentation in the initial spec. And the expectation was that I'd take one of the tools at my disposal — which was related, or what else was there. Balsamiq, I think. There was even Visio — all kinds of tools like that to do detailed design. XD was perceived a bit, because it's Adobe's, as something of those design people. But Figma is so easy to work with, to produce something that looks really real, that suddenly a lot of product people know Figma, and therefore they draw and implement — I almost want to say design — how the product will look. How it'll behave, what the flow will be — especially with working with the design system, I already have the actual components, the final look, and therefore all I need is to put it on the Figma, and there — it works. There are also plugins for Figma that turn it — so it turns out that Figma has amazing prototype capabilities, there are plugins that turn Figma into HTML, and therefore it seems as if Figma

Eyal David: [19:23] makes UX redundant. So what did they announce? Tell us. How did they bridge the gap even more? So — I understood they've now introduced insane AI.

Yishai Cohen: [19:35] Meaning I don't even need to sketch anymore. I need to type — I need to write in text 'build me a site.' That's the flow it does. And it does it from here to here. In five steps. And crazy things that afterward I really just need to review. Meaning, one of the things designers hated most is a product person sitting behind them saying to them 'yes, and yes, move this here, make this a bit more.' And now Figma came and said 'okay, you don't like it? I'll do it for you.' And really I foresee that product people will sit and give a prompt line, and there'll be an app, there'll be a feature. And what's even more stunning is that it's very easy to get feedback now, because it's much easier to get to market — right. And the second thing is you can also produce several variations, and you're also supported by the wisdom of the crowd.

Eyal David: [20:34] And you set it up for a smash here. I think — one second, I'm stealing the conversation for a moment — this actually says, in general about AI and UX, and maybe it's worth shifting the weight of the conversation there. You told me in a coffee chat a very interesting thing, that with the help of AI, actually only the middle will remain.

Yishai Cohen: [20:56] Yes. The edges will disappear. Because when the AI looks and maps the thing that's the best, it again looks at a lot of opinions, it finds this middle, the edges disappear — so our interfaces too will be like that. The experiences too will actually be like that. To my dismay, to my fear... To my fear? There's surely a nice word for it. Yes — basically what happens is that the AI relies on what's been done until now, and from there produces here's what 80% of the products, deliverables, do to serve 80% of the users. Now, it works both ways. Meaning it also means that this is what users are used to, and therefore it's what they'll want. It's like declaring — it's the dishes that sell the most. It's the dishes you'd make in the restaurant, and most people, that's what they'll always want. Or alternatively — sorry. I look at TikTok, for the sake of argument. Okay, their interface is really, really simple, but essentially content is king there. And specifically your ability to stand out with a very creative stance, I don't know how creative, but creative — that's what distinguishes, and that's what flings you to the top. You know how TikTok works. It also tells you — and that was their uniqueness as a product. They understood that everyone wants to be social leaders. No other platform told you how to do it. So either you bought traffic, or you worked very, very hard and exposed yourself, literally, very, very much, to get traffic. But TikTok came and said 'you want traffic? Here's a hot topic.' So I'm already thinking for you, obviously. Yes. And not only that — basically, they told you, 'on this I want you to post content, so I can promote it.' 'Here are songs that'll help, here's the music' — everything was already loaded and ready. Now what's beautiful is that they went to music creators and said 'you want me to promote you? Tell me' — meaning, it takes thought, product thought, very, very sharp, to pull this off. Is it moral? UX-wise? I think not. There are a lot of very bad things in TikTok. But as a product case study, there's something here that's really very, very, very hot and terrible. In a sense he said, 'just press the button, we'll take care of the content.' Which means the next stage is, like, really content that's already generated, you just say this is what you want. And that's the... that's the mediocrity. That's the... producing content. Now, by the way, it's known that TikTok in China, of course... not many minutes, right? No, not only that. The content there — what do they show? They show whoever wins science competitions. Yes, everything's clean. Everything's not only clean, but everything's smart, and to the West they send whoever manages to eat a tablet of laundry powder. You remember that thing. And all kinds of those — they deliberately dumb down the West and raise up the Chinese themselves. That's already another problem, right? That's another problem, but I want to look at this — not... rather... at the fact that mediocrity is an obstacle to humanity. We need, every now and then, the Van Goghs, we need the Picassos, we need the... Sergey Brin and the others. Who will challenge. And when I rely on AI to give me the decisions, I arrive at something very, very mediocre, but also... or... average. And somewhere, humanity will go backward. I'm kind of projecting onto this

Eyal David: [25:15] for a second our conversation about UX and product, and it's terribly interesting. Because what you're actually saying is there'll be tons of products that are good. They're good for the user. It'll be very easy for products to do UX already today. On the other hand, the products won't be groundbreaking, and really, only whoever manages to create a very, very unique customer experience, who is very, very creative — then basically his product is meant to beat the big one. And even that's not certain, because when all the products look the same, and it's very easy for me to work with them, and there's really no barrier, it doesn't challenge me, I don't need to learn anything new — then why would I take a new product? Why would I try? I want it to behave the way I know, the way I'm familiar with, and then it'll be hard, as product, to justify something new. Why?

Yishai Cohen: [26:14] I think it's also — if I said product is judged, in my opinion, on what gets done when, then AI solves that, it's very clear, and at some stage there'll also be an AI that tells you the probability that this thing will take to move to production on time without bugs, on a feature it's about to write. Exactly — I believe there are now AI products like that coming out. But — and whoever builds a startup on it and raises funding, I take 10%. But, think about what this means — like, it'll be very easy for product to choose the feature that's the most margarine, the most on-target, the most parve, the best. It'll be very hard to explain why I want a feature that's groundbreaking. I'll give an example — I worked at some startup for a very, very short time, and it was aimed at Gen Z. There was a product there. It was yet another social media. And because it reaches Gen Z, I said, I want to challenge. Gen Z-ers very, very much love challenges and all kinds of things like that. There's no send button. You write a message, and there's no send button. You have to discover on your own how. They're on me, they tire me out. Exactly. You're not entirely Gen Z. And my assumption was that it'd take Gen Z relatively little time to discover that basically what you need to do is drag the message into the middle of the screen. Just do a kind of flip motion like that. And the moment they discover it, since they discovered something new, they'll want to show off with it. And that'd be the viral effect

Eyal David: [28:02] of 'oh, you know how to do it? Oh, you do it like this.' I think, as product — wow, how many users do you lose in the middle?

Yishai Cohen: [28:08] So we tested it. And it worked. It really worked. Because it took them time, but they didn't give up. They said 'wait, how do I send? I wrote some message and it turned into water for me.' 'But what do I do now?' And then we did a kind of animation of how it's sent, like there is today in WhatsApp, that explains to you that you can swipe to reply. So we used mechanisms like that. And then, whoa, it's cool, I can just swipe and throw it into the middle — got it, got it and kind of do some — and it worked. In the small tests we did, it worked. But, as you say, as product — why would you want it? I was disturbed enough, or someone let me loose enough. It doesn't matter that in the end it didn't work out, so I don't know. But which AI would support this thing? And therefore which product would arrive at some such thing?

Eyal David: [29:08] You're right, and I now recall that another thing we talked about earlier is actually the parallel to the camera market. Again there, as it were, over time — at the beginning we started from there being a camera to shoot with, we advanced to — long story short, we basically got to cameras for everyone, after which it was very easy to shoot. After that we moved to phones, we killed the middle, and now we're in a state where we basically only sell the cameras — basically the high-end — to photographers and such and to extremists. And suddenly, when you think about it, then specifically for product or for UXers there's a huge opportunity in this future, because specifically those will actually be the groundbreakers and will know how to produce the right case studies and the creative thinking. Suddenly their services will be very expensive.

Yishai Cohen: [30:02] There'll be a need for them. So I think here — if we said AI will turn most products into 80% identical, then at the same time, and this is a bit hard, probably 80% of the UX people will be redundant. Maybe some of them will move to product, maybe some will do it — but also developers — it's true for many professions — but there'll remain I can't say at the edges, because one edge is simply the bad ones — so the bad and the mediocre won't have a place, because there's no need for them. There'll remain those who bring some uniqueness, there'll remain those who know how to validate and do challenging as a way of life. So maybe that's another thing that — we actually talked about this — that something the product always needs to know is to cast doubt and to prove. So those who really persist at it will remain until — UX, I think — they'll be needed not for wireframing anymore and not entirely for the flows, but as the ones who look at the user and say 'what does she want,' 'what does this solve for her, what needs does it address' — and this also leads a bit to something, a topic I'm very interested in and active in lately, which is human empowerment by design. Meaning, you can do something, but what human ability does this product sustain or help — for the sake of argument. When I make some product — we've already passed the cycle of retention, because 'how do we do retention' was a stage that was the coolest to do the hook, then we understood it's black hat and we — how do we un-hook and all kinds of things like that — but today I think a lot more time has freed up, and a lot more room to think about how, how my product improves humanity, the human, the human ability. Yes, we talked for example about two examples — there's Google Translate and there's Duolingo. Google Translate says 'listen, you can't know all the languages, and you have, as a human right now, you have a problem communicating with another human — I'll give you a solution for that, okay? That's what I do.' You write, it gives you the answer in the language, and that's it. Duolingo says something else — Duolingo says 'I'll teach you' how to produce, how to speak this language that right now you don't know. Google Translate's approach is an approach of giving wings — from the field of user empowerment design, it says 'you'll never be able to fly, I'll give you these wings; as you know that you'll need, I'll provide you the wings, you'll be able to fly, land and continue.' Duolingo's approach says 'I'll give you the runway, the launch pad, you'll train, train, and that's it, and here you take off.' Both approaches are good, but here's something that I think product managers have no time to deal with today, and UX people also don't — because they'll come to their product manager and say 'I want, I want us to have some discussion about how much our product helps a person be a better person — let's think about features like, for example, a reminder to call his grandmother inside the product' — so the product person will say 'that's wonderful, I have no time for it now, let's push it to next quarter' and so on. Because there really is no time. But the more things are automated, there'll be more room for it, there'll be more room for this kind of thinking of 'let's make products that are better,' that make people better. It's terribly interesting — education, that's an example of education products, that's probably obviously a field that already works well today, and probably it's also really going to explode with the very fact that there'll be more free time.

Eyal David: [34:24] I thought while you were talking — making the user feel better, or even the female user — basically, when I come to buy at Next or at some store, and suddenly you get the message 'hey, this will look good on you' — it'll make you... it's just, I think, but like, really these human gestures —

Yishai Cohen: [34:42] but no, it's interesting, because it's really the difference between a user and a human, because it makes her feel good. And here I'll bring in for a moment the difference between user empowerment and user experience. User experience talks about the user so that she feels good in the product. The example you gave is a great example of user experience — to give advertisements that make her, surrender permission, feel better, that she buys this product, to make her happier when she buys this product. It can be black hat, but it can also be good. I can definitely say at Next — I think Lyft did similar things, unlike Uber; they said 'wait, maybe you don't need this,' and so as it were I'm shooting myself in the foot, but as the product person — the female user will say 'wow, this isn't really a product that just wants my money, it actually cares about me.' But I still haven't helped her as a human. To help her as a human, we need to look at what's important to her as a human. And there — it sounds very high-level and feng shui for products and all — but at the institute I'm a member of, of UID, really David Gulula, who did a doctorate on this, formulated a few rules for how you do this empowerment, and therefore how to know what's important to a person and to that person's social context. So let's think how we help her social context through the product — not to tell her 'this looks good on you,' 'come check it with friends, what do they think about it.' Now, that's a very brave decision as product to make, because friends might say 'doesn't look good, too expensive.' But it mimics some human ability, when that buyer goes with friends to buy a product — her friends' opinion is very, very important to her. So why not bring this human thing, this human communication, into the product? The assumption is — research shows that when you empower human traits, things that remain beyond the use of the product,

Eyal David: [37:04] it'll lead to growth of the product. That's interesting — it's like the relationship with the product, that's what you're saying, right? Now, how much time do we have

Yishai Cohen: [37:13] today to deal with these levels? Almost none. But the more AI there is and the more we use these tools, it'll free up time for us. So I say — don't use this time to make more features for nothing — free up the time to think about how we make, through the product, the world better.

Eyal David: [37:39] Interesting. And on that optimistic note, I think we'll move toward the end of the episode. Interesting — I'll ask you a question we now tend to ask, a new question, Yishai: in ten years, what do you wish? Or Yishai the professional — I wish for myself

Yishai Cohen: [37:52] that the things I talked about today, of user empowerment, will be clear — that they'll already be something that every product manager I talk with says 'yes, but it's so obvious, it's like it's old, it's —' that's what I wish for myself, I wish for myself that in it — products think about their impact. I think one of the most exciting things there is was a product called Secret. I don't know if the listeners remember — an option to send anonymous chats. And it was in the period when Facebook was buying all kinds of things for billions, and they offered the founder billions for this thing, but he shut the product down because he saw people using it for harm. And I think I'd be glad if there were more. Such products that come to do good, that we harness technology to do good, and I live in a world — ten years from today — where I look and say 'what a joy that technology is being harnessed to do good.' For myself I wish — as a human — ten years of richness. Important — that from the point where we are when we're recording the episode, it's very easy to ascend. But I want, really, the feeling of richness, the fulfillment. To see how — how we started doing reversing of very negative processes happening in us.

Eyal David: [39:31] And in general — good, that's also what you said in the context of AI, that it'll take us backward, and... In short, Yishai — very interesting. Do you have maybe — I'm sure you have plenty, but do you have maybe a recommendation or two, actually, for product people

Yishai Cohen: [39:43] who want to learn more about UX? I suggest, yes, looking at research on the subject of user empowerment in design. I'll put some recommendations there too — for reading, because really, this will lead product managers from being technocrats of product to being strategists of product, to being those who bring it to fruition, aimers of product. And I highly recommend — I got into this lately as a cliché of a midlife-fifties crisis, that I'm into mindfulness. Really, this ability and the deep engagement with it — I estimate that 90% of the product managers listening to us, after a bit of practice with it, suddenly it'll show them that it's the right thing to do too

Eyal David: [40:34] when you make products. Um — we took, and it brings me back a bit to the Corona days, and okay, to get in touch with you — LinkedIn?

Yishai Cohen: [40:43] Yes, LinkedIn — maybe that's also the right sign, to search and grow my Instagram, which is called UX Expedition, and in the days of this episode's recording it's desolate, so if you ever feel like not seeing any content, search for UX Expedition — I'll start putting a bit more content there.

Eyal David: [41:05] Lots of dad jokes in the openings. Let's go, Yishai — it was really fun, thank you, thank you very much, bye bye. Thanks for listening. If you found this podcast valuable, you can subscribe to follow us, of course, for more episodes of the podcast on Apple, on Spotify, or any other app. Of course, if you didn't find us somewhere, write to us on any platform, and follow us so more listeners can be exposed to us and find this episode. Let's go — be effective, and bye bye.