Transcript: Effective Communication: A Practical Master Class with Shani Chai

Eyal David: [00:04] Hey everyone, this is Eyal. You've reached Product Builder, and here you can listen to the most interesting product conversations. This time we're in an episode with Shani Chai, who helps managers create effective communication. Today Shani will give us a kind of practical master class — it's going to be super interesting. And before we start, if you enjoy listening to Product Builder, rate us five stars on Spotify. It'll give me great feedback that the podcast is giving you value, and it'll also make me really happy. So come on, let's begin. Hey Shani, how's it going? Hi Eyal, I'm great, how are you? Same here — so great that you came. Really fun. Really. So we have Shani with us, who — fun fact — is actually Daniel's partner, and Daniel was interviewed here in episode three or four, and we decided it would be super interesting to talk. Shani is basically an organizational consultant; she works with technology companies, mainly with managers. And with women managers. And with women managers, exactly. And this is really, really, really relevant to most of us. So I think that... Shani, let's talk a little bit about what you're going to talk about today.

Shani Hai: [01:14] Today I'm going to talk about a lot of things that seem self-evident, but I think they're truly for life. Like, it doesn't matter if we're product managers, if we work in an organization, if we're talking to the CEO, if we're talking to the security guard. It's always relevant. We're going to talk about effective communication. And how, essentially, we maybe need to do a bit of work, but we do it so that in the end communication works for us. Sounds very efficient. Okay, so let's dive in — let me just tell a bit about you. So, Shani, you actually used to work at a tech company, you worked at Google, right? Do you want to tell a bit about your bio? Yes, my bio started in a very eclectic way — how do you say it — arbitrary. My career started as something arbitrary. But little by little I started making somewhat more informed choices once I understood a bit about who I am and what I want. So I really started, as you said, in high-tech, in a kind of project management, operations role in the marketing department of 888. Pretty much totally unrelated to my bachelor's degree in psychology and communication — not very related. I got there simply because a friend recommended me and told me, 'you're perfect for this.' From there — a colleague in the office left her role as online marketing conversion manager, as it was called, and I simply went to my boss and told him I want the role. That's how I entered this world. Very effective — yes, I had the courage. From there I really rolled on through another small game-development company, and then really on to Google, where, by the way, I was for less than a year — a little less than a year. And I left Google after I got a promotion — two days after I got a promotion. Wow. Yeah, and I realized this wasn't the place. And that if I'm not happy at Google, then I probably need to do something about it. At what age was this? Thirty.

Eyal David: [03:19] So at thirty you basically reached the insight of what you don't want to do in life, and that fixed you in place, essentially. It did fix me a bit.

Shani Hai: [03:26] To explore and go back to the fact that I am very, very interested in psychology and in choice — working with people, always, too. In marketing I was always around the psychology of users. I really remember that I even did some session. That I called 'behind the clicks,' at Google, really monitoring behaviors — exactly — and then I said. Well, maybe let's go in the direction of occupational psychology, because I was more interested in giving practical tools for what you can do today. And again. By chance I missed the GMAT exam for the master's degree; a friend was just doing a development course. A managers' course at Lotem, which is a very large organizational consulting company in Israel. I told her, wow, that sounds really cool. I want to talk to the facilitator. She gave me his phone number, through him I reached the owner of the company, and the rest is history. Like, I started working there — something so practical. So this basically brought you. Basically to the place where today you consult, right? Today I — I — I think the best way to define what I do. What I do is that today I help people find what they're good at, what they love to do — which isn't always the same thing. And what there's a market around that's willing to pay for, or that someone values. It can really be. A small business, and it can be any employee, or any manager. Or a woman manager, the most senior or the most junior, in any company. So basically everything related to people and processes. And when the people are better off, in my view organizations work much better.

Eyal David: [05:07] So basically you help people find market fit, essentially, and in parallel you also do.

Shani Hai: [05:13] You also teach at Reichman University (IDC). I work with Professor Roni Shachar at IDC, in the business administration faculty. Where we have a course called 'Storytelling in Business,' where we really take the fundamentals of stories. Of how to tell a story, and use it for tools of proposals and marketing, and even self-marketing. And self-branding — really branding processes: how I do it on myself, how I understand what differentiates me. How to present it, who my competitors are, who my partners are, how I need to tell the story and to whom, and so on.

Eyal David: [05:47] Okay, so today you basically work with managers, you go into a company and really — and women managers — I'm not bugging you. This way we'll make the change — you work with women and men managers — and you want to, a little. Basically start to tell about what we'll do today, about what I do with them. Yes, yes, yes. What we'll do today.

Shani Hai: [06:07] Okay, so today we're going to talk about one of the areas that, in my view, are the most important that I deal with today. It's a soft skill that's very, very simple and clear, that people always talk about, that in my view we always fail at, many times over. And today we'll actually talk — we'll take it from the broader angle — of what communication even is, and how I, before I even approach someone, analyze. What they are to me and how I approach them. And we'll get all the way to the practice of, okay, I have a message, how should I deliver it. I'll try to give a few very practical tools, like one, two, three — apropos communication and bottom lines — and give those tools.

Eyal David: [06:49] Excellent, excellent — really a game plan. Okay, cool. So let's start — so you're saying we basically start from analyzing the other side?

Shani Hai: [06:55] We start, yes, from analyzing the other side. First I'll say, by the way, that this is something Neta also mentioned in the episode on negotiation. I really liked it — it was 'always be curious,' that when we negotiate, we actually know only half the picture. So it's very similar. I think the biggest mistake we make is that we think we know what they want — what the person in front of us thinks and wants. Even though we usually look at it from our perspective, or from what I have to give them, or from what I want from them. We don't really listen in order to listen. Do you know the song 'Sounds of Silence'? So it's like, 'people hearing without listening.' It's exactly like that. So that's one. One is to understand at all the point of view of the person in front of us. And the second thing is the simplest thing — how I communicate. How I communicate with you, what I say to you. I write you a WhatsApp, I write you a Slack, I call. It's the channel, but it's also the manner in which I express myself. I'll use the channel — I'll now write you first the bottom line, and then the rest — or are you the one who likes to hear the behind-the-scenes first. And then the end. Do you have patience? Don't you have patience? What interests you within what I'm saying — the numbers, the logic, the challenge? Okay? Each of us has different drivers. And I need to appeal to your drivers so that you'll listen to me.

Eyal David: [08:17] Okay? I have a question, before we get into it. A real rule of thumb. With digital tools, in today's era. Could it be that it's always right to actually start from the TL;DR (the bottom line)? Because you understand that everyone is terribly, terribly busy, and there's, like, right?

Shani Hai: [08:32] Very nice, so you're really setting me up for a spike. Beyond the fact that it can be — that's for sure. And it's not just that everyone is busy and flooded. I meet a lot of people I work with — managers, women managers, and not only them — who feel that many times the digital platforms. Are attacking them. And I, by the way, am more than once someone who recommends simply turning off the notifications on your phone, if you can, okay? Slack, WhatsApp — everything attacks us. It's gotten to the point where, with me — you don't experience this, because I like you. So I try to answer you on time, but for me WhatsApp has become like email — I can reply to a WhatsApp a week late, and I'm not the only one. Okay? So every time some new platform comes along that we abuse, and it's reached the level of — I think I told you too — I really want to run a workshop on how to use Slack. Because I find that so many organizations have simply adopted it, and in my view it unequivocally causes a drop in productivity. Again, I haven't tested this, but I'm willing to swear that it causes a drop in productivity, if only because of the context switching and the whole thing where it really hurts employees' well-being. So I have no doubt it affects performance. Performance and the well-being of the employee, as you say? Unequivocally — and they're connected to each other, by the way. And it also creates a lot of connections — a lot of, sorry, short circuits in communication. It doesn't create connections; it actually harms relationships, it creates short circuits in communication. Many times when I write a message on Slack, it doesn't come across the way I want it to come across. And I'll tell you that I have a rule — if I have something bad to say, or something that might be interpreted as bad, okay? I never write it. On any. platform. I always say it, either on the phone or face to face. Because each of us reads differently what... yes, that you want it to be interpreted the way you want. Exactly. And also so there's no documentation of it. No, I'm joking. By the way, it's really true — so there's no documentation of it, so no one forwards it to someone else. And misuses it, not the way I intended. But mainly, really, to reach the other side and deliver the message exactly the way you want. Unequivocally. Okay. Again, by the way, not always from altruistic motives of thinking about the other side — many times also from egoistic motives of thinking about what I want. And even the fact that I want to give someone constructive criticism right now, and make things better for them, but I also don't want them to burn with it... Yes. The relationship. Yes, on Slack that probably wouldn't have worked. Right. Okay. And let me just tell an anecdote maybe about this. Not long ago I ran a workshop with some group I worked with, among other things on the whole communication topic. And one of the participants said that he always writes very long messages on Slack, because he wants to make the meeting unnecessary for the other side. Because for him a meeting is the worst thing. Oh, I know those people, okay, yeah. And what do you do when you get a message like that on Slack? We talked about this — the length just makes me recoil. But what do you do? What do you do? You got a long message, like... I put it off, put it off. The person who thought he was writing you a message to save you the meeting and save you time, right? He comes with good intentions, sees you're ignoring it, and what does he think? It's not important enough to me. Right? Why — like — why is he ignoring me? It creates a cycle that's exactly the opposite of value, okay? That's exactly where it starts creating those short circuits in communication. Whereas if that guy had simply written, 'I'm writing you a long message on Slack now.' 'So that we won't need a meeting — read it whenever you get a chance.' Okay, a very short sentence he could have added at the beginning of the message. That's likely. Just to set expectations. You'd appreciate it and you'd read it with much more ease and without the feeling that it's attacking you and flooding you and stopping you from rolling on to other things.

Eyal David: [12:12] In general, setting expectations is something worth touching on — the basis of everything, in my opinion. Really, really. We'll touch on it later when we talk about messages.

Shani Hai: [12:19] So okay, so these two things — the channels through which I communicate, how I communicate, and the fact that I think I know what the other side wants. Those are the mistakes we usually make. And we make them many times over. And so, maybe the first tip is — hold on, at least when we have an important message. To sit down for a moment and plan it. Even write it out in a few bullet points on a note. A moment before you call or even write on Slack. It really, really helps to organize your thoughts. That's really the first tip I want to give, and I promise that little by little it becomes... I don't know if second nature, but it becomes much more automatic. Okay, so what do we do to start? First of all, what I recommend is to manage our interfaces. And our stakeholders, exactly the way we manage the features in the backlog. Okay? Whether it's product managers or any other task. For the audience of listeners who aren't product managers — which I know there are many. So basically you imagine some kind of table in which I... A matrix, yes. A matrix, exactly. Where you imagine that on one axis there's an axis of, say, influence in the organization. Or authority, or power, and on the second axis there's relevance to what you're doing. Maybe let's take an example for a second. Suppose I'm now developing some new feature. And I know that there's... obviously I know it'll interest all the senior people, say, because it's a feature that's supposed to, I don't know, increase monetization. Or make a big improvement to monetization, or some growth engine that everyone is counting on. And on the other side I have the interest and relevance. Because in this feature there may be things that touch a certain piece of code of one team, but maybe if I design it a little differently. Then it'll have an impact on something else. And so, I deliberately took the example of the feature. Because many times it's really easy through this to demonstrate how dynamic this list is, and how it constantly needs to be like something living and breathing. That we manage, exactly the way we manage tasks. Managing relationships with stakeholders is exactly like managing tasks. And so, by the way, people change — they move from side to side in this matrix, and up and down. But through this matrix it gives me some initial idea of who I need to invest more time in managing the relationship with. And who less. So basically their priority changes, as you say. Exactly, exactly. And I'll say that those who are high priority. So obviously I need to have regular and proactive communication with them. That is, I need to set up weeklies with them, I need to set up one-on-ones with them. I need to update them, I need to consult with them — if I have the option to consult with them before making a decision, all the better, because then I'll really enlist them. But this changes the ranking of that stakeholder for me in terms of communication. Suppose I already have my stakeholders, okay? Which is something I really recommend doing. By the way, to make this matrix, to write down your stakeholders for a moment, even once as a thought exercise, just to understand for a moment. And I'll say that whoever doesn't have the energy to do this — then I'll give another rule of thumb, maybe: think of everyone as your customers. That's what I always try to do — to think that everyone is my customer, everyone is my customer, okay? Even the security guard at the kindergarten is my customer, in some way. I need to treat him with respect, and the moment I think of someone as a customer, then I'll make much more of an effort to adapt myself to them. Naturally. So even if it's someone you feel is your colleague in the organization, and who is sort of your confidant, he too is a kind of customer. And, back to that, if you do this, then you'll also get it back, right? Right. Now, many times people think it's a really manipulative way of seeing things. And even a bit opportunistic, but I really don't see it that way — I see it in exactly the opposite sense of. Our customers — we simply devote time to planning the communication with them. We don't just fire off messages on Slack, right? So essentially we respect them much more in that regard. And I think that's how we should treat everyone around us. Okay, so I have my stakeholders, right? Now, what I want to do is take a moment to devote time to step into their shoes. And I do this in two ways. The first thing I try to do is understand what their motivations are. Understand what amazes them. What worries them. Understand what they see as success. How do you do this besides talking to them? Well, many times you can really see it in their communication style, okay? When I work, say, with the people I advise, I really ask them: how do they write their emails? Is it long? Short? Is there a question they always ask you? There are, say, managers who always ask, what's the benchmark? And what are others doing? So you can often spot those for whom visibility is really important. Like, they want to present to management, they want to tell about it. So it's often very easy to identify the motivations. If you just look for a second beyond my side of the story, okay? Instead of saying, oh, my annoying manager wants me to prepare a presentation for him to present again. And I won't get the credit — I can think, wow, visibility in the organization is really important to my manager, I need to help him achieve it now, and then I'll earn points with him. So always think about what would make your manager, or whoever is above you, or this stakeholder, walk in proudly to someone they report to and tell them about this achievement. That, in my view, is the way to think about it. And the second thing — well, and there are some you can of course ask directly.

Eyal David: [17:38] I really do this — I ask, what's your definition of success? That's perfect, that's a perfect question in my view. I'm writing it down too. What is success in your eyes?

Shani Hai: [17:45] That's a question that, in my view, by the way, we all need to ask ourselves many times a day. Really, in almost everything. What would be the success of this conversation? Exactly — otherwise how can you, we're done. So the first thing we'll try to do is really understand the motivations. The second thing is to understand the style. Eyal, as we just said — this is Eyal, this is you. You're a sensitive guy, you always ask at the start how are you, you're really curious. You're a certain style — with you one can go on for hours about anything. Okay? Not everyone is like that. There are a lot of people who have no patience. There are a lot of people who really want the bottom line first. There are people who like to communicate only on WhatsApp, because they don't like calls and... you know. There are all kinds of styles, and so, as much as we can, we should set expectations about the channel too. For example, suppose I'm starting some professional relationship with someone at work. Whatever new project, and I... okay, I'm now a product manager, and I... after all, a significant part of a product manager's job is to be a nudge, right? And then you become this kind of... nudge — to figure out how much pricing, how long it'll take, etc., etc. What's going on? What's going on? Exactly — where is this heading, what is this, when is it in planning, why is it so much, blah blah blah. So what I'll do as a product manager to enlist the people. Is to say, listen, this is, say, super urgent, we need to move it forward by the end of the week, or by the end of the sprint. Or we have to finish this in this sprint, and I really need to have my finger on the pulse — even to say, I really need to have my finger on the pulse, for my sake. So really communicate this — of course. Really communicate this and say, is it okay if I do a little Slack check-up with you at the end of the day. Do you prefer WhatsApp, do you prefer to send me an email, whatever is most convenient for you — I don't want to, like, pester, I want to respect the way you like to communicate. Okay? The same thing can be done with those above us, by the way. To say, how do you prefer that... I correct you. Exactly. It's a really simple question that helps a lot. By the way, a lot of people also say this about themselves. They say, with me just record me voice messages. Totally. Not me — call me only on WhatsApp, like that. So essentially they give us a menu on how to work with them. Right. Okay? I will say that not everyone will give us this feedback. If we once made some blunder and wrote that long message on Slack, not everyone will tell us, wow, what a pain you are. But we'll accumulate some negative charge. We'll lose points — of, ugh, that pest, that one who goes on and on, what does she want now. So yes, you need to be mindful of it.

Eyal David: [20:12] A question — can I stop you for a moment on the question? Of course. What about reaching out after working hours? Obviously it's better that it doesn't happen, obviously we... It's a last resort. But if it does happen?

Shani Hai: [20:25] Okay. So I'll say, I'll say something that maybe will already connect us to the next thing. Let's take it this way. We have something important that I want to communicate after working hours. But not only in situations like these. I think the key is always to start with the why. Why am I saying this message to you now? So for example, if we take the after-hours example, I would say, hey, how are you — I always like to start with 'how are you.' Because I think it's a super American opening, like, for us Israelis, and sometimes we're cynical about it, like, well, you don't really care how I am. But I think that if someone took the time to type out a few more words and write 'how are you,' then as far as I'm concerned that's good enough, even if you don't actually care. I think so too. It's another way to show respect. So, how are you? I'm really sorry to reach out at such an hour. I'm reaching out because there's an emergency with this. It can even be at the level of, I'm reaching out to you because I can't get this off my mind. And I'm really, really troubled — like, to let you into the depths of my soul for a moment, and draw you closer through that. But to explain why, why I did this. And I would also say at the end, I of course won't make this a habit, it won't happen all the time. Like, a kind of setting expectations for the future too, so you won't think that if you answer me now. Then some pattern will form here where I'll feel it's okay for me to always reach out to you. But if I take this for a moment, Did I answer you? Are we good? Yes, yes. So if I take a second — maybe some general tips on how to build a message. So again, always start with the why, in my view, and from there do the expectation-setting. So again, if I take this for a moment to the more detailed message. Of rules, like, on how to build the message — so really the first thing is the why. Why am I saying this message to you now? Now, it should be concise. Because again, we think in TL;DR. And it's not always easy for us to be concise. So what I tell the people I work with today is: use AI. I think you should, really. Like, not to read — no, you're joking, I'll say that you've kind of let it out, and because of that... because you exposed it, okay. Exposed what? I exposed what? What everyone already knows? Yes. We all communicate with the help of devices. Perfectly fine, but what did I even reveal by that? It's great, okay? And it also helps people a lot. I had someone I advise use AI as a matter of routine, because he had some block about starting to reply to someone's email, and it saved him. So why not? Now, obviously we don't use it like robots, but I'm telling you that today I hardly send out any formal communication. Without running it through something. Okay, alright, fair enough. If only to think. So I say, if it's hard to be concise. Use AI. And then correct it and... but start from the why. From there I move to setting expectations. A bit of what I expect to happen in our conversation now. If there's something very, very important that you expect me to tell you. Suppose you expect an update from me about some feature — whether it made it into this release or not. Or into planning. I know it'll annoy you that it didn't. I need to tell you this in advance. To put it right on the table, okay? I compare it to a restaurant. You arrive at a restaurant. With the family, you sit down, and you know the kids choose, right? What did they choose? Say pizza, okay? Everyone agreed on pizza. The waitress comes, you tell her, okay, we want pizza. Oh, sorry, the oven isn't working right now. So we have no pizzas. That's a much bigger disappointment — that's basically what you're saying. Right, right. So I say to put the bad things on the table in advance. Not in a bad way that ruins the appetite, but to come up front and say, the oven isn't working. An update on this feature — I don't have an update on that right now, it's still, I'm handling it, I reached out to you now regarding something else. So that he won't be waiting for it the whole conversation, with his attention going there. This is also deeply rooted in the early expectation-setting you did with him, that you know. Just based on this story, you know that this thing is super important to him, and by when it's important to him — like, what's the urgency — and then you know how to communicate around it. You're talking about his motivations — that you really know the stakeholder well, right, excellent, and he also feels that you're on it. Because you're managing your stakeholder. As if he's a customer, and you know this is important to this customer. But beyond that, I can also set expectations about things related to the relationship between us. Or the communication between us. Say, that I always have clashes with someone. There's someone I always have clashes with on a regular basis. If I come and ignore it, it'll turn into a kind of passive-aggressive conversation, whether it's on Zoom or on the phone. Passive-aggressive, like, I don't trust you, you don't trust me, we have a bad history, why even have this conversation now — just to check a box. In the best case he'll nod in agreement and then do what he wants, and in the worst case there'll be another blowup over something. Or he'll catch me on a word over some little thing. In short, not good. If I want to prevent this situation, I'm very much in favor, in this regard, of honesty. By the way, even if they're not Israelis. To come and say at the start, I know we've had our disagreements in the past. I know you don't like the technical solution that was found for this now, and at the same time, it's really important to me to hear your feedback. Or your insight, or I'm reaching out to you because you have a lot of experience with this from the past, and I'd still be glad to hear it. It's a bit like disconnecting. I always compare it to swapping out the character of the person in front of you, like in cartoons — okay, I'll now swap him for Donald Duck for a moment. And I'll see if I'd still consult with him or not, how I'd talk about him if it were someone else. What this made me think.

Eyal David: [26:04] First of all, I'm still stuck on the word 'advisees' (male and female), but let's set that aside — I wasn't familiar with it — but what I think. Does that mean I have a communication problem? No, it's the opposite, I'm getting wiser here. But what this made me think. Is that I might add to this table, or this matrix we thought about, which you mentioned, actually some kind of column for risk. And then to know, actually, which accounts are at risk, and which I need to handle. Very true, and I'll say beyond that.

Shani Hai: [26:31] That many times, it's actually the stakeholders who are seemingly in a low place in the table — say, they don't have much power. Or they don't have much interest at the moment — in the literature they call these 'unexploded bombs.' Okay? Like a bomb that could go off at any moment — it's enough for the feature to change a bit now and affect their code, or they simply. You didn't get on their good side, and then it happens that they have some influence over someone who's a stakeholder of yours, and they whisper bad things in his ear. And it's over — so everyone needs to be managed there. And overall I'll say that avoidance is the easiest choice. And the worst one you can make. Because it's full of surprises. Exactly, right so. You can't manage anything. Exactly. To avoid is simply not to manage it, and it never leads to good places. I know it's not always easy. To deal with things, but I always, What I always try to help the people I work with do is to cope — and by the way, you don't have to start with the person you get along with the least. You can practice non-avoidance on people who are easier at first, and build up success and courage.

Eyal David: [27:41] And... to overcome it, and I think what I'm also hearing is that this is something you practice. Absolutely. You improve.

Shani Hai: [27:48] Absolutely. It improves the... so where were we? We were at setting expectations. Right. Right? Now, I got to the body of the message, okay? In the opening we had 'why' and expectation-setting, and I can also — I'll make a slide afterward, some kind that everyone will have. Then comes what's called the body of the message. Okay? The body of the message. What I want to say. Now this, I really, really think you need to plan in advance. Unlike the rest of the things we wrote, okay? Because this is the hardest. Not long ago I worked with someone on some... he needed to push forward some sensor, and the first sensor was a colossal failure. That stepped on a lot of management's sore spots. And we had to think about how to even present the idea of fixing this sensor. Or trying to fix this sensor, because everyone simply didn't want to hear about it. So we had to, like, find it a name, a new name, and also bring in some metaphor. And in the end he simply used some image in the presentation for it, and talked about it through that. But I'm saying, every organization and every person. Has the things that make them feel bad, that they don't want to be reminded of, or that are a failure for them, and so we always need to think about what we say. Not to mention that there are words that are loaded for all of us. If I say to you now 'ma'amatz' (effort). 'Effort' [in Hebrew] is a word that doesn't do us good. Probably not. Okay? So I can even say 'effort' [in English], okay? Which sounds softer. I can't explain why, but to me at least it sounds softer. Everyone knows, in the jargon of their own organization. What's better and what's less good. You just need to plan it in advance, and if we're not sure, I like to read it out to a few people. To see their feedback. So I said. This too, by the way, you can do with AI, you're saying. Basically I can distill it. Distill it with the help of AI even, and then, hey, what do you think of this? Hey, imagine you're XYZ, what do you think of this? Excellent. Okay. I can tell you that I often use AI to say, find me a metaphor about whatever. Which one do you use? Sorry that you opened this up here. All of them, and I have arguments with them. Go on. I make comparisons, and I argue with them, I say, no, no, that's not right. It says to me, 'oh, sorry, mistake,' no, no, no — you told me otherwise earlier. Exactly. So which was your favorite, the favorite child? Oh. It really varies. Like, it varies a lot depending on the content of what I'm doing. I have to say that because I'm not on a Mac. So Copilot is really nice for me. But Bard is good for other things, Gemini is good for other things, like, I really — I try them a bit. Like, sometimes even in terms of what appears on my screen. I feel more like a different UI. Okay, so let's go back to where we were. Okay. So basically we distilled the message. We distilled the message of what we want to say. And we paid attention to which words we don't say and which words we do say. And we tried to make it as short and concise and understandable as possible. Afterward, we need to persuade. How do we persuade? Many times — always, not many times, always — when there's data, bring data. How do you bring data? How do you also present the data. How do you present the data — nice. That's exactly the difference between knowledge and interpretation. I don't want to bring the raw data as is, although there's a caveat here and I need to say it too. I want to bring the interpretation, I want to say 'so what' — like, I brought the data, so what? The 'so what' can also be several alternatives that I present and why I recommend what I recommend. Okay, but I want to show some history, I want to bring data so that they won't think the argument, or what I'm trying to say, is an assumption — exactly — but rather that it's based on something. Now here too we get into another rule of thumb I suggest: we can't always know who we're facing. There are people who require more persuasion — you know those who just have to touch the data. Like, download the Excel, send the Excel — and there are those who have no patience, they can't look at all those numbers. So I really — I call it the 'read more' model, okay, like expansions on it: 'read more,' whoever wants, here's the raw data, I attach it. And then those who are more thorough, and those who don't like being sent something flimsy that they don't trust, feel that there's — that work was done here, that there's meat here.

Eyal David: [32:11] So this is basically the ABC of storytelling. I remember that when I was a startup guy, and we had a sales deck, if we didn't know who we'd run into — totally — the deck ended somewhere, and if there were follow-up questions, or someone wanted more, then there was an option to continue, or to actually send them those materials. Absolutely. But regarding data, it's really very important to remember: give the interpretation, not the raw knowledge. Even at the level of — once, I had a manager's manager who always asked me, what's the benchmark? Like, relative to what?

Shani Hai: [32:40] Of course. So I'd literally put in front of my computer a note with the questions he always asks me, and before I'd go in to present some results of some campaign, I'd make sure I had the answers to those questions. That's it — if we're already making this a life lesson here, then I think, always, when we present data: compared to what? That's something you always need, because otherwise, a thousand people could be a lot, but if you put it in comparison to a soccer stadium, then sixty thousand — then it sounds more reasonable.

Eyal David: [33:05] So, always — compared to what?

Shani Hai: [33:11] So I like to tell how I got to it — like, to tell my thinking, to bring people into a thought process — specifically here, not to tell the TL;DR, to start from how I got to it, and what I started from, and why I analyzed it this way, and why I analyzed it this way, and why I compared, because... Tell a story — it was a story, of course. Exactly. But again, here you're taking me to the story. Data isn't always enough on its own, and many times I will want to tell a story, or give an example. Give an example from the past, describe a success. But I do want to say that not every message needs this. Many times I say some message, and it's fine, I see everyone is convinced, and you know, everyone is totally convinced, and then it's a waste of time. So that's another thing I want to make clear: a very, very important part of communication is that it be concise. Because in our nature, in these times, all of us, as you said earlier, are constantly under pressure. We constantly have all our tasks in our heads. Everyone's attention — all of us, right? Exactly. I find it hard to use this 'attention disorder' term, because I really think there's an attention disorder that's much harder, but effectively... Of course, but I mean filtering, that's what I mean, right? Exactly. Exactly. So the moment someone is concise, I automatically appreciate them.

Eyal David: [34:26] So always make sure I'm clear, concise. You know, I can say — quite a few people have been guests here, and they talked about the way they actually recruit people, because they're all VPs and directors, after all. So I really remember two answers. One answer from Roi from AppsFlyer — it's really that if someone starts talking in fluff and gets out of their lane, he really tests for that. That people are very focused in what they say — if not, then, like, he stops listening, and that's where it ends. And Shai, from Empathy, talked a lot about, or mentioned, actually how important it is that your one-pager, of the résumé you send. Really be in a normal font that you can read, really contain the right things, because otherwise you just lose interest. So that's really, really true.

Shani Hai: [35:11] Absolutely, and I'll say on this matter, that I always recommend — and try for myself too — but I always recommend to people, in job interviews and in résumés. To talk about specific things. The specific stories are always much more convincing than all the fluff, as you say. And even if it means that I come down a level for a moment, you know, not speak all high and lofty, and for a moment give people a glimpse of who I really am. Even if it's the story that seems the smallest and silliest to us, it makes people get to know us. And so — that is, the way I work with students, say, on preparing for job interviews, is: come, write down for a moment your most prominent strengths. And let's focus on it, right. And find a story for each one that shows how it is, so you'll have it ready to pull out. And then we'll build the story, think about what's right to present in it, what isn't, what to say, what not to say, which words to use, which not. But, you know, they always say in résumés, say 'I,' don't say 'we,' all those things. In my view that's not relevant — it needs to be authentic, and it needs to be specific.

Eyal David: [36:16] I'm kind of thinking in the head of someone listening to us, who does start to adopt these things, so I'd think that... First of all — the more, I think, tell me what you think — the more these things... these actions become second nature. It's probably a sign that you're on the right track. And the second thing is what Neta really said here — she talked, granted, about negotiation, about that. But essentially what she said, the effect is that you'll have fewer difficult conversations. I think here too... Absolutely.

Shani Hai: [36:49] I'll quote my favorite quote, I think, from Mark Twain — the one where he once writes a letter to someone, he writes to him, I'm sorry this letter is long, I didn't have time. In my view it's simply genius. So that's what I think — I think that maybe today, right now, people are hearing us and saying, Wait, but why do I need to adapt myself to others? Why do I need to plan so much just to talk to someone? In the end, like, well, my manager talks to me however she pleases, and she doesn't adapt herself to anyone. And I'm not saying that's a mistake — I know it's true, and that there are many like that. But I think in the end this is the investment. The most worthwhile one. Because in the end, if we invest a bit more time in this, for that matter, now, with a certain stakeholder. We'll always reduce the friction later, exactly as Neta said, on the side of the difficult conversations, and conversely, we'll only increase the value, we'll only earn more points. And there's an excellent talk by Ilan Noga on political capital, which I'd also be glad to put here. Where it really says there, political capital is something you can invest and make more money from it, more political capital. And you can also lose it. So exactly the same thing — do we want our capital to work for us or not?

Eyal David: [38:05] Totally, great example, and I'll add something I tell my daughters when they ask, why me? Because that's the handle you can move.

Shani Hai: [38:12] That's what's in your control. Well, so we wanted to move on to the last point, I think. The last point, the summary, of how I actually pull together my message at the end. How I close it. First of all, I'll say that when I summarize — whether a presentation, an argument, or a meeting. Don't add new data. Okay? Don't add new information, don't add a new question, don't add a new action item, nothing. Try to speak as much as possible in a call to action. If you can speak in deadlines. In quantities, in a certain ownership, that's excellent, for that matter. So now I expect an answer from you, or vice versa. Now the ball is in my hands. So if I close this for a moment — now the ball is in my hands, I'm responsible for doing such and such, and getting back to you. A kind of returning to the expectation-setting of the whole conversation, and creating some call to action, and if you can also add, Then say, for instance, I'll try to do this by the end of the week — if I don't remember tonight, send me a WhatsApp to remind me. Most of us do this naturally. Because for our own sake we need this order at the end, but it's very important to do it. Especially when it's a stakeholder. Especially when it's an impatient and angry stakeholder.

Eyal David: [39:27] You know what I — first of all, great tip — you know what else I do? When I come to meetings like these, I basically ask, So what do we want to get out of this meeting? What would actually be something? You do this at the start. Yes. It's a kind of expectation-setting. Yes, and it makes the other side really think for a moment. I always thought — wow, I read this in some book, and then I said, this won't work, it's this. But it makes the other side think, and really everything becomes much more actionable, and much more focused and targeted. And I really connect with what you're saying about every task — every meeting, sorry — needing an action item. It's so logical and right. And someone needs to take ownership of them, and it needs a date, because otherwise it simply won't happen. Right, but it can also be at the level of, for a second, even building the trust.

Shani Hai: [40:08] It doesn't even have to be some action item that's, like, very important, but it's at the level of — again, okay, this is on me now. Say someone just told me she's looking for a job, because she left her workplace, that she's looking for a job. Okay, this is on me, now the ball is with me, I'll send you things. Not exactly when — when I see, I'll send you, but it's with me. And every so often to remind. You reminded me that you said — another question I really love. It doesn't always fit — it doesn't fit, say, with stakeholders who are more senior than us — but with us as managers it can often work: what do you need from me in order to succeed? And then automatically it kind of throws the ball for a second to the other side, of bringing the agenda and what they need from me, even if I think I don't need to bring the agenda. That's a question. You're smiling.

Eyal David: [40:55] I smiled because someone reached out to me on LinkedIn — you offered a connection, and automatically like that, and the moment I left it, the very first message was, so what can I do for you? And I thought, wait, really, I responded, that's cute — nice, yes, I really liked it. A word to sum up maybe of everything — well, hold on, it was amazing, I think let's converge to the end for a moment, because we've really been talking for quite a while now. It'll be a really longer episode, but I think it's full of gems and tips. If you have to summarize — do you have some recommendation — if one had to take one thing out of the whole range of things you said, what's the most effective thing?

Shani Hai: [41:38] The easiest and most effective is two things: to write our messages down for ourselves whenever possible. Whenever you can plan, then write it down, and the second thing is setting expectations about the channel — how they prefer that we communicate. I'll tell you what I — I was going to say the table, but I don't do the table, it's all in my head, so yes, that's really great. Shani, it was amazing. If HR managers want to get in touch with you.

Eyal David: [42:08] I don't actually know — are your clients HR managers? Who exactly? HR managers too, also maybe, also managers, also, you know, basically freelancers.

Shani Hai: [42:17] So whoever wants to bring you into their organization — how do they actually do that, get in touch with you? So, both on my LinkedIn, and I'll also leave my details.

Eyal David: [42:25] Thank you so much for coming, Shani, really interesting. Thank you, I had fun. Bye bye.