Transcript: What in Your Business Really Runs Without You? | Or Hakim (Videocast)

Opening — a new series: Inside the Business

Eyal David: [00:00] Hi, so just before we start, this is a slightly different episode. I've started a new series on Product Builder that we call Inside the Business, and if it holds up, we'll do more episodes like this. Basically, most of the time we talk here about product, technology, about people who build big things inside companies. This time we're going inside the business, we'll dig into business owners. This time we have Or with us, whom we'll introduce in a moment and you'll tell us, and basically we'll talk about questions people talk about less: how you really bring in customers, what happens behind the economic scenes of the company, of the business, what was a big mistake, a small mistake, challenges, and how we keep our mindset in the middle of all this.

The business's two arms: studio and guidance

Or Hakim: [00:38] So let's go, Or, let's start, tell us a bit about yourself, what the business does. Okay, so broadly the business has, let's call it, two main arms. There's basically the studio you're sitting in, which is just the simplest thing there is, renting out a studio to come and film podcasts, and the second type of service is a bit more complex, it's broadly a guidance service

Eyal David: [00:58] where I go to companies, people, and build them a studio in-house. The simplest, like, no, I'm suddenly realizing that you're like helping people, basically in our conversation too, you're helping people like behind the stage.

Or Hakim: [01:09] And suddenly you now, like, you also had a podcast, right? I had a funny story, I told myself, okay, I produce podcasts and I don't have a podcast, so I recorded like ten episodes, uploaded three I think, and then I went to reserve duty, the drive crashed and all the episodes were gone. And then I told myself, wow, like, that's the killer tax, and I kind of retired from the podcast because of that.

Eyal David: [01:29] Too bad, it's actually a good channel, we'll talk about it. A good channel, I agree with you. So wait, so we said there are basically two products you sell, what does it look like when you work with companies, is it with companies, what kind, what does it look like? In studio builds most of the customers are companies, there are also organizations, municipalities and such, and there are also private customers, with each of them it's a

Or Hakim: [01:48] completely different process. Companies are usually, you know, there are lots of people, a very long process, you need to get to lots of meetings, lots of scoping, lots of people who each have their... you know

Eyal David: [02:01] the operations manager and the CFO have different questions. So yes, it's a process with lots and lots of... let's talk about that for a second really, like maybe people who aren't self-employed don't know what a sales process is, right? Because it's not that you advertise something, even if someone referred you and like you're in one meeting and it's closed, it's really not like that, right? Right. So wait, just lay out for us what kind of companies these basically are, hi-tech companies, companies of what size? Lately lots of hi-tech companies, lots and lots of hi-tech companies, but it can be, look, in the end a studio fits everyone, I also have law firms I built for

Or Hakim: [02:33] like it's really, really all over the place. And by the way, something interesting you said, the difference really between a company and a private person, very often people ask me, say, whether I'm B2C or B2B. Now when people say that, they mean whether you work with a private person or with a company? For me, I look at it from the angle of the sales process, because for me B2C is if I'm working with the CEO, even if it's a company of a thousand employees, if I'm dealing with the CEO in the sales process, then it's B2C

Eyal David: [03:02] and if I'm dealing with someone inside the company who isn't the one making the decisions in the end, then it's B2B. That's how I classify it. That's it, I have a bit of a hard time with whether that's right, because in the end it's not just a sales process, it's also a marketing process. Now if I go B2B, then I need to know how to market to businesses, okay, that also has all kinds of characteristics, well, I'll probably give different support and you just give a personal connection, that's what you're basically saying. A personal connection yes, but you know, for me the sales process

Or Hakim: [03:28] is a kind of thing from which you have lots of derivatives, because from it you understand your customers' needs and then from that you derive the marketing, from it you maybe also understand what service you need to give afterwards. So that's why I look at it very much from the angle of sales, for me sales is very much like

Eyal David: [03:43] the backbone of this whole thing. Let's go, we dove in for a moment and we'll come back for a second. So basically you have one product that you sell mainly to companies, also to private customers, I'm going a bit in order, private customers and also organizations, municipalities, and basically let's see, let's also talk about what other products you sell them, because it sounds like there are more products you could sell them, because hey, I put in infrastructure, so maybe I can also operate the thing, I don't know if you want to, and basically the second product is what we're doing now, which is a studio by the hour. Yes, people just come, pay by the hour and come to film in the studio. What does it look like, in terms of percentages of your business, these two products, from the angle of revenue or from the angle of workload.

How revenue and time split between them

Or Hakim: [04:24] Let's start with revenue and then maybe we'll say how much time you invest in each. So revenue depends on the period, it's a bit seasonal, because you know, say at the end of the year and the start of the year more companies build studios because they have budget surpluses and things like that. But let's say that in terms of revenue the studio is about 60% and the consulting services are about 40%, and in terms of the workload itself the studio is more in the area of... I'd say 80%. Amazing, so that means you fill it really well. Yes, yes, relatively full. Because like it has some capacity and then basically... that's the thing in this niche, yes. It's hours, you sell hours, you can't sell more than 24 hours a day.

Eyal David: [05:08] So that's exactly where I'm taking you, so how do you find customers first of all, and we can think about both channels.

How each arm brings in customers differently

Or Hakim: [05:15] Nice, so good question, the consulting services, for about two years, even three years, I sold them by word of mouth. How long has the business existed? The consulting services, about three years, give or take, around the war, I started that. The studio here, two years. So the consulting services I really sold by word of mouth. I didn't market, not Instagram, not anything, like, only word of mouth. Only very recently I started, I hit on a good form of marketing on Google, and from there it brings me customers. And the studio is really traditional marketing on social networks. Like ads, digital, sales calls, the most classic there is. Because there's maybe a difference here, because at first you basically sold yourself in consulting, right? It's always harder to sell ourselves through ads, and here you're selling a product at the end of the day. That's true, the consulting services too, I look at it as a high-ticket product. Like it's less like it'll pop up on your Instagram and you're like, let's go, yes, I feel like putting 30 thousand shekels into building a studio, that happens less.

Eyal David: [06:14] It happens more that you want it and then you go into Google and search for it, so that's why I think Google works better for that. There's also a much bigger element of trust here, that's what I mean, you're selling it in a way that people probably first came to you through referrals, like you say, right? Because they did get a specific recommendation a lot. Yes, compared to a studio where okay, there are reviews and I just book, you also don't need to be in the loop I assume, right, too much in the studio, less so. Because on the face of it I can book this thing remotely, right? Right. So tell me how it works, but if I lay out your customers for a second, then let's put the studio aside for a second really. Is there one customer who holds more than... how many customers do you work with in the consulting business, say? In consulting, broadly, around four a month.

Or Hakim: [06:56] Because that's what you can handle, or like that's what comes in? Listen, if I have four and a huge company comes and wants to be the fifth customer, I won't tell them no, but I make sure it's around four a month. So that I can really give very personal attention to each one, because for me the service is very, very premium in the builds. In the studio, it's like you said, there's the initial interaction. Yes, there's attention I give during the service, but most of the handling is, I won't call it automatic, but you know, when you want to schedule a shoot you don't need to talk to me. You can just schedule directly through the thing. So in consulting I'm very much in the loop, in the studio less so. What does the consulting business really look like? I'm suddenly realizing I don't understand it that much. There's some meeting, okay, say I decided to go with you, you have a scoping meeting, for the sake of it. Yes, so I, so I basically come physically to the place, I need to see it, and from there I basically send you some proposal. Once you decide to move forward with the proposal, then I basically manage all the dealings with the suppliers, so you know, that means calling the suppliers, haggling with them on price, ordering the equipment, dealing with the order, which isn't trivial, because you know, sometimes there's no equipment in Israel and then you need to either get it or the equipment costs me, say, one time a customer whose equipment was shipped from the United States and the container fell into the sea and all the equipment arrived wet. You understand, like surreal situations that sometimes happen, and dealing with that. I also have lots of, I'm a person who's crazy about automations, really, I have lots and lots of systems. So I have, say, a bot I built that helps me build the proposals, that, say, saves me lots of time.

Eyal David: [08:24] So you know, it's a lot of operational work, but yes, there are efficiencies of yours there. Wait, you're taking me to where you got more efficient, I'm still trying to understand for a second what your service looks like, so basically you come, you, you scope this and this, basically the room, the studio, their needs.

Or Hakim: [08:39] You order the things, haggle, create a proposal for them, for the sake of it, at this stage it's your customer, right? Yes, at this stage it's already after payment and everything. All the equipment arrives, I build the studio, it's a few hours of setup, I add training to that too, to explain to them how to operate it. And then the most important part, which is after the build, which is simply being available to them for questions. For how long? Good question, I love being asked that, because let's say if you open the contract it'll say three months there, but in practice I tell everyone, listen, in the end it's important to me that you succeed. Like if after a year there's a malfunction and you call me, I don't ask you for money, so I won't say it's for life, but. How do you really take it from there, from this point, is there someone on behalf of this company who is now a studio person? Usually yes, in companies yes. So they hire for this position basically? Usually it's like they grab some technical person in the company who went through training and then he operates it, they hire less, that's exactly the thing I want to do, but there are also situations where there's no technical person and then simply at the build I film a video of really how to operate it, they print a QR code, stick it on the studio door and then people know how to operate it on their own too, that's also possible. And all the outputs that are basically created from this studio, they know how to handle that on their own, what does it look like? In most cases yes, yes. The Tel Aviv municipality, just, I don't know who your customer is, the Holon municipality, so they know how to handle the... again, it really depends what happens. Say for the Tel Aviv municipality I built a studio where, what's the situation, it was a kind of school where there are kids who produce the podcast, so like part of their lessons is editing. So they really work on the materials. There are studios where I, say, bring a device that does the routing for them, so they just record and then can upload it. How stunning, you're saying this, I hear it in my head. Tell me, tell me, and basically are these returning customers, what do customers like that look like? The consulting customers less so, because it's like, it's a customer you build a studio for, there isn't much service needed after that. I can sell them editing services, but it's not something I do that much. Purely for business reasons. On the other hand, the studio customers yes, these are returning customers, about 60 percent of my turnover is from regular customers, I have customers who've been running with me since I opened the studio, really.

Eyal David: [10:54] So yes, in the studio they're more returning ones. And you're planning now, what, what basically are you, okay, I think of it like this, do you have a plan you're running with, how basically do you, how do you run

The bottleneck: why consulting can't scale

Or Hakim: [11:04] now in 2026, for the sake of it? Good question, a very good question. I'd say it really depends on the period, because say if you'd asked me half a year ago, I'd have told you my direction was actually to sell the business, but now I've actually started really enjoying the business and also the mindset changed a bit. Now I really, really want to stabilize at a sales turnover of 100 thousand, hire a salesperson and then broadly expand, I mean open another studio, maybe open another branch somewhere else. The consulting services, on the other hand, are a service that's a bit problematic

Eyal David: [11:39] there it's hard, maybe let's explain why, because there's a limited number of, there are two limited things I think, correct me if I'm wrong, a limited number of customers, one, a limited number of Ors, because you need to bring another Or to do this work. So a limited number of customers isn't accurate, because every person who wants to record

Or Hakim: [11:57] I'll even say in the area of... above two episodes a week a studio suits them. Now in the end, whoever records, little by little like they may increase the pace, so customers yes, there'll be new ones, so that's less of an issue, but bringing a person to replace me is very, very hard. I've been in the field for seven years already, so finding a person who has my understanding is very, very challenging. Where we talked about automations and so on, suddenly this becomes the physical world, right, so it's much harder, so I assume that's one of the bottlenecks you basically identified in the business, right? Right. You know, I have a good friend called Tamir Mandovsky, so I was just talking with him once about the business, so he told me, he told me like in passing, listen, how fun, it's a consulting business, a business where you make really good money, the problem is it's a golden cage because you can't scale it.

Eyal David: [12:42] That's really true, the consulting business is very, very profitable for me but it has a bottleneck, it can't, it can't be expanded further. Well, it really depends which consulting business, right, if I'm now a lawyer who gets murderers out of jail, just, you're joking, in the neighborhood that's something else, it really depends where you consult and what the outcome is. Tell me, so okay, you're running now with this plan, so you talked about revenue basically

Or Hakim: [13:05] what about expenses? In the consulting business or in the studio business? A business, you operate as one unit, no? Yes, but no, I, I treat these two bodies. Two separate bodies. In the studio, a studio is a super profitable business, really, if you know how to manage it well. I'm very, I'm like an efficiency freak, really, both automations and things like that. If you try to talk about it, how, how, which is possible? Of course. Let's say that the studio business, if I manage it very, very well, I can reach profitability areas of eighty percent, something like that, which is very high for a service business with employees and everything. In the consulting business it depends how you look at it, because there's basically a certain amount that goes toward the equipment and a certain amount that goes toward the guidance. Now I, say, in my calculations in my Excel, I don't count the money that passes through me that's for buying equipment. Because it's not your money, of course. It's not my money, but financially yes, money passed through. You understand, so say, just throwing out numbers, say the whole project cost 60 thousand, 10 thousand went to me and 50 thousand went to buying equipment. You'd tell yourself, okay, so you lost like 50 thousand on the project and earned 10. But in practice like I don't look at it that way. So the profitability there is very, very good, there are no expenses there.

Eyal David: [14:18] But again, there are no expenses there because it's you, because it's me, yes, but in my opinion there's actually lots of potential there. In what sense? Like, when you started describing it, first of all, the very best thing is probably to interview these customers and hear what else, what else hurts them. But if I'm a company, and I, I know a few companies like that that have a studio there. There's very big wear and tear of these things when they don't have someone who's really responsible for the thing, okay. So I think about it from this angle of some kind of guidance, even as insurance basically on the thing, you can probably do that. And the second thing is like you said that you're there not just so they build it, but so they basically succeed. Right. So like guidance in that respect, to make sure they succeed, that seems to me something where you could maybe partner with others too, you have lots of experience in it, right? That's true, but I'll tell you the truth, I didn't feel there was such a need. That's it, I'm saying you need to talk with them and hear, but at the beginning of the road I'd probably really want it, especially if I had a company that's now producing, I don't know who's producing there, lots more are producing content there, right? Yes. They don't really know how to produce content.

Or Hakim: [15:18] Yes, if you mean it from the content angle, yes, certainly. Yes, that's true. Succeeding, what is succeeding? That's really true. The problem is that for me it's like, listen, I can bring in an employee who'll do it.

Eyal David: [15:29] But for me at this stage it's like selling more of my time. Ah, I imagined it as you could do a partnership. Find an amazing service of someone you really trust, and now there's basically an arrangement you do together, yes, and that's money with zero effort.

Or Hakim: [15:42] Yes. I think it's also kind of a win-win for everyone. But I agree with you that it needs to be checked, because nobody asked me for it.

Eyal David: [15:49] That's it, I think that's it, we as business owners find it really hard to approach customers or prospects and start asking questions that are real and will probably help us cut the fat.

The war with Iran: a full studio, all postponed

Or Hakim: [16:00] Yes, right. So that's always good. So tell me, what was it like in the war? You talked about the studio, I'm really curious what the war was like. When it was really challenging, especially in the last round, I mean the whole war actually went relatively okay, but in the last round with Iran, what happened to me, first of all it came after a period when I tried to hire a salesperson, I lost lots and lots of money there, and then at the same time it was a holiday period, so it's also a period where there are somewhat fewer sales, and at the same time a war, so people also spend less money. And at that time, it was around March, the studio was fully booked, it was completely full, and about 98% of the customers postponed the shoots. Now in my field, the meaning of postponing shoots is, think that they don't film in March, so they'll, say, film in April or May. What does that mean? It means that in April and May I don't have hours to sell. You missed twice. Yes, so I lose both March when they didn't film and also the month after that when they'll film, so like the economic damage for me is times 2. So like all the... you know how they say troubles come in bunches, so all the troubles came in bunches and that's the super challenging period. Luckily I was prepared for it, I mean I knew the war would happen, so financially I'd already prepared what are called reserves, so I was prepared for it really well, so it didn't hurt me much, but. How was it really, but in terms of bringing in new customers in this period? March, I think that apart from customers who were already there, who like renewed deals and things like that, I don't think any came in, or maybe one or two deals came in. Something like that. And you said basically that you bring customers,

Eyal David: [17:44] you talked about a few channels, you talked about referrals, you talked about returning customers, which basically weren't there in consulting, but there were basically also the campaigns, how did the campaigns work?

Or Hakim: [17:55] The campaigns, for about a year already in my field, are very, very hard, it's simply a super competitive field. Especially in the last year lots of studios are opening and also everyone competes on price, which is like the very worst thing that can happen to a business. So the campaigns are very, very challenging, and add to that the war period, there's nothing to be done, people spend less money in stress situations. So you know, it's like both a competitive market and a situation where people don't want to invest. You know, I'd get on calls, people like no.

Differentiation in a market of "corner kiosks"

Eyal David: [18:27] That's it, sharpen something you said for me, you said everyone competes on price, that's about studios, I was talking about. Right. And when you talked about the consulting business, you positioned yourself very well, I heard it, you basically talked about the extra value you bring. At the studio level, how do you know what basically the uniqueness of this studio is.

Or Hakim: [18:44] Nice, I love this question, because they always ask me it in phone calls, what's special about you. Yes, they ask, they ask a lot, beyond price, interesting, beyond price, yes. And I always tell them, it makes me laugh, and I tell them, every studio you call and ask what's special about you, they'll tell you, with me the filming quality is the best and the service is the best. But in practice until you experience it you won't really, really know. This field is a bit, as a friend told me, a field of corner kiosks. It's whoever looks at you and at the kiosk across the street. It looks the same, same to them, people don't really feel the difference. I'm more like, I think my differentiation is more, let's call it, the organizational focus with me, I mean both mine and my employee's. It's simply on the customer's success, like that's really the outlook, and it comes through in what we basically try to give. So, say, I give an hour and a half, I don't know another studio that gives an hour and a half, for the sake of it, and I lose money on it, for the sake of it. Just say, I'm now building a system where instead of you needing to watch an hour-long episode and write titles and a description, it'll produce it for you, and I give it to all my customers for free. So like this, this is some added value I give that's hard to define as differentiation, but it's really like something that doesn't exist elsewhere. Interesting, I, I still don't know how much you, what it looks like, like after this episode, how well it'll work compared to my existing studio, so I'll update you. Come, come tell a bit about, honestly I have lots of questions about what we talked about, but actually let's move on, and we also understood now that basically your business is you and an employee, right, which is growth that happened recently, right? An employee I had almost from day one, like I really opened the business and already hired an employee, there was just a half-year period where I like didn't have one, and then now I hired him again. So yes, how was it that from the start you basically had budget to bring in an employee, because like there was a big enough margin? The situation was that I had a production company before, so I like already opened the business not from a beginner's place, I already knew what I was doing.

Eyal David: [20:39] So I really already started and like knew where I needed an employee and how I was going to fund him, and from the start I already knew how I'd do it. Which is always, but I also see that you approach life with a plan, which is good. To manage, yes. Yes, because otherwise it's really very hard, so you also talked about really preparing a cushion basically during the war. Right, right. So tell me a bit about mistakes. You have, first of all, what are your challenges today?

The challenges: data analysis and hiring salespeople

Or Hakim: [21:02] For me personally there are two very, very significant challenges. One is data analysis. Maybe that'll surprise you, actually very much yes, I just, I don't know why, it's very challenging for me to analyze data, financial data, marketing data, it's like a skill I didn't sharpen enough over the years, I think. And now I'm like starting to learn it a lot, it's also a skill that I can't even begin to describe how important it is, like the ability to make decisions based on information. That's the thing, that's your challenge, not data analysis, that's the way there. Okay, data analysis is the tool to make it happen, so that's a challenge I'm now working on very, very hard, and the second challenge I'd say maybe manpower, especially from the sales angle. It's simply very, very hard for a, let's call it, small business to hire a salesperson, especially when the business owner is the one who does the sales, because there's nothing to be done, a salesperson isn't the business owner, he simply sells in a different way, and sales systems are always complex. So that's, say, something very, very challenging where I also did a lot, you asked about mistakes, so there I made a lot of mistakes, I lost a lot of money there. So let's stick to challenges for a moment and we'll continue, so you're saying that your time is also a thing here basically. My time yes, my time is a very challenging part, especially from the sales angle, because there's nothing to be done, when you're on a call you're not making another call,

Eyal David: [22:24] so like my force multiplier right now is one. Or it could be that you're now fumbling around with some prospect, with some potential customer, but meanwhile you're not doing others. And how is your day divided today, the week, for the sake of it, if you now split it between working on the business, which is sales, marketing, and you'll say with more automations and so on, like going and working on the day-to-day.

Or Hakim: [22:46] I'd love to show you my calendar, but I'm sure I'm under this information, so I'm asking easy questions. Let's say that in the calendar I actually analyze lots and lots of information and I write everything down. Broadly I work like this: until 11 I do all the tasks, let's call them development tasks. Development tasks for me can be creating content, working on new automations, thinking, stopping for a moment to think of new ideas, making contact with, I don't know, other businesses, like things like that, business initiatives. And from 11 I have a schedule that's fixed almost every day, which is a few hours of sales and then a break for customer service. More sales service, customer service. Tell me, tell me about this time, okay, sorry, finish and then. More sales and then like the end of the day is like more finance stuff, like issuing invoices, organizing spreadsheets, like when the brain is dead, yes, when the brain is already done and it's just being. Tell me about sales, so what do you do in those slots? In studio services it's mainly making calls. Sales like the most down-to-earth there is, like phone calls to leads. Cold calls, you're talking. Yes, cold, cold ones like that. How do you get these leads? How do they like roll to you? Today it's mainly Facebook, Google and word of mouth, mainly. And on the other side there are the consulting services, where it's really a sales process, I mean it's a first call and then if the person closes, there's the scoping meeting, which is like the second stage of the sales process. And then from there it can be, say, another Zoom meeting if it's, say, a company, like there there's some process that's a bit more rolling like that.

Eyal David: [24:26] And there it's also usually meetings, I mean it's driving to places, and that's time nobody counts for us. Yes, travel time in sales, exactly. So tell a bit, so if we dive now into one of them, so tell about, you started talking here about some mistake, so go ahead, I'm giving it to you.

The 60,000-shekel mistake

Or Hakim: [24:40] Yes, so sales is really a challenging issue, so I think the mistake that cost me the most here in the business is a mistake where I ended up, I think, around 60 thousand shekels that I lost, where I wanted to hire a salesperson and then I simply turned to someone whose job it is, who helps companies hire salespeople. How did you find him? Broadly a referral from a friend, but I knew his name from my previous company, he worked in the sales center of a competing company and I knew he sold well there, and I knew that today he has his own center, and I talked to him and he explained to me that he has the center and he also helps companies hire salespeople for themselves. I paid him quite a lot. Um... it's not that relevant what happened inside the process, simply in the end I didn't come out of the process with a salesperson and I lost around 60 thousand shekels, both like the payment to him, but also from payment, you know, for marketing that no customers came in from, from salary for salespeople who came and didn't succeed, not to mention deals that didn't close because of this thing, which you can't even count. And I think it wasn't one specific mistake, but it was simply a series of

Eyal David: [25:46] mistakes inside this whole event that rolled it along. So like, well, you also missed out on your time here. I don't think it's a mistake, by the way, it's... yes, it's a bit hard to define it as a mistake, it's an experience you have in the business. Yes, it's experience, because otherwise you'd also have been bummed that you didn't do it, but right. Tell me, so you ran with this thing, maybe the mistake here is that you dragged it on for too long?

Or Hakim: [26:05] Could be. I'll tell you a pattern I have in my personality that sometimes happens to me, that sometimes when I approach new things I'm a bit what's called dependent. I like, things I can surely do myself, I prefer to bring someone and pay them to do it, and it's not necessarily the right thing to do. It is right for very many people, by the way, to do that, but it's not necessarily right, and also the person I choose isn't necessarily the right person for the role. I think that's the mistake here, especially since I'm also aware of this pattern in myself and still, still I did it. What did you learn from it? Like if you now must hire a salesperson, that's clear, right? What did you learn from it? It'll sound like the biggest cliché, but mainly to trust myself. The reason I went to him is because I didn't trust myself, I told myself I don't know how to hire. In practice, I think I actually know how to hire pretty well, and I simply think that like the main thing I learned is simply to be more objective toward myself, I mean about my abilities, about my experience. I've gotten to hire

Eyal David: [27:05] quite a lot of employees over the years, to do lots of job interviews, like I do it pretty well, so why like not. I also really understand you, there's this moment when you invest the money and you say wow, that's off my plate, I'll now go free up for other things, right, and in them, and then you come and sample it and like it's not good and not good and not good and you say like, okay, I'll make it happen, because it seems to me you're also kind of like. Right, you also caught a really correct point here, that I really love, like, to pay, to pay properly and have someone take care of it, and it's really frustrating them to pay properly, so it was a bet. Which, did you take other bets on the business that did pay off?

Or Hakim: [27:40] Let's think about it. And I take, for example, every so often a bet on the business, because like, otherwise... give me, say, an example of a bet. So many, marketing, sales, efficiency, even cutting a day out of the week for my own time, like for building something new, things like that. Yes. Good question, listen, this business, I opened it relatively when I already knew what to do. Yes, I pretty much nailed it down when I already knew what to do, so I didn't have a lot of, you know, deciding on a certain path and seeing what happens there. I didn't have too much of that here, from what I remember, not too many dilemmas of that kind. I'll need to like, you went, listen, I come from a software business,

Behind the economic scenes: startup capital, automations and seasonality

Eyal David: [28:25] so in the end I have a laptop, if I want to close the business, I close the laptop and go home. In your case there's equipment here, there's an event here, how much capital do you need to open a business like this, and it's not just the equipment, right? Yes. Like, how did you even approach it? Listen, so first of all the barrier to entry in this field is very, very low,

Or Hakim: [28:42] that's also why there are lots of competing studios. This whole studio, what you see here, cost me 40,000 shekels plus 3,500 shekels I pay in rent. That's the whole story. Great business, yes. Yes, that's the whole story, and in the first year I was spending 30 shekels a day on paid ads. Let's say, whoever wants to do a great business, it's a great business to get into. So the risk here isn't very high. I mean, if it hadn't succeeded, you sell the equipment, like, you know, you don't lose too much. In consulting services, there it's more challenging, because it's really building a process, and I'll also tell you the truth, it's a scary service. Because someone comes and puts 80,000 shekels into a studio with you. I, at least personally, even today, after I have lots and lots of confidence, I still have a bit of nerves in my heart when I come to set up, that I forgot some cable, that I forgot something. There's nothing to be done, it's scary, because it's important to you to give service at a good level. So there it was a longer learning process of, like, preparing, you know, better work procedures, like...

Eyal David: [29:40] Ah, you work with work procedures, what a pro. Really. Wow, if you saw my procedures system, you'd go crazy right now. Really. And to this day, if we talked here about efficiency and automations, then you can now talk about it, right, surely this thing went up a significant level. Listen, automations, I, let's say

Or Hakim: [29:56] let's say I look at business owners in four categories. You have people people, which is a description of people who are usually like better at sales, better at managing employees. You have people who are more technical, so they're like more technological, more building the spreadsheets, doing things like that. You have the analytical ones, which is all the data analysis crowd and so on, and you have creatives. Which is usually the guys who, product, people like that. I'm on the technical side, crazy, it's like my forte. I'm very, very good at automations, and everything I do here in the business, I immediately think how I can like, you know, implement some automation there or build something. And I can tell you that in my opinion, about 50% of my income is thanks to the automations, which save me lots and lots of time. You know, I just, like, I'll just give you the simplest example there is. Say, once a customer who wanted to schedule a shoot would call me, we'd open a calendar, you can at 12 and so on, and schedule. You understand? Today you saw the scheduling system, you understand? It saves me lots of time. So that's, say, a small example. Automations, wow. Whoever doesn't have automations in their business, I really don't understand how they manage.

Eyal David: [31:09] That's one thing, but I assume that also once you map both the conversations you have in the business and everything, again, I'm talking about the consulting more, actually, I think. You talked about work procedures, so like there you can find, with the help of data, lots of gold that you can improve,

Or Hakim: [31:25] right? Right, actually most of my work procedures are here in the studio and less there, because there it's very, the work process is very systematic, so like it's pretty much one long work procedure. Here, say, in the studio it's lots and lots of small procedures for tasks that are more specific. There, say, the big difficulty is building the proposals, because every room is individual, every need is individual, every person has a different budget, like everything is very individual, so simply over a long, long time I built a very, very big database, and today I have a calculator where I just choose the... IKEA style, basically. Yes, really yes, I choose like the equipment according to needs, it immediately puts in a price for me, the price I built automatically so it pulls it automatically from the internet, so everything updates for me too, and that's wow, it like saved me lots of time. And tell me, what, if we talk for a second about difficulties, costs, blah blah blah,

Eyal David: [32:18] what's the biggest cost that people outside don't imagine you have in the business?

Or Hakim: [32:26] In my field, there aren't many expenses, I'll tell you the truth. Tell me, all the equipment, does the company buy it or do you buy it? No, the company buys. Usually the company transfers money to me, and then I... why are you even in the event? Why like can't you work with... to make it easier for them. Because I make the... my whole thing is that I make their purchasing efficient. So sometimes there's an item that needs to be ordered from here and an item from there. I mean, I don't send the customer 20 links, order from here and from here and from here. So I prefer that they transfer the payment to me and I'll do the whole order.

Eyal David: [32:57] Which also here there's probably somewhere to get more efficient basically. Economically, I'm not talking about operations. Could be, yes, could be. Okay, tell me, now you talked basically about this period, now of the war and in general, in general, your business is like, what does the... seasonality, its seasonality look like? I'll try really hard to speak only Hebrew, what does the seasonality of the business look like?

Or Hakim: [33:20] Um... start of the year, end of the year, those are the best periods. You talked about it a bit earlier, yes. Yes, those are the best periods, both in the studio and in builds. Holiday periods are the opposite, those are the most challenging periods. Also in consulting, like, people are on vacation, they're not in the office, so there's no one to talk to. And also in the studio, people are abroad, like there's no one to talk to. The rest of the year

Eyal David: [33:42] is, is like a stable period. It's like our period. And in those periods when it's less strong, do you advertise just as much? Less? What does it look like?

Or Hakim: [33:49] I make a point of advertising more, but it's very challenging. The matter of competition in my field, especially in the studio, is

Eyal David: [33:58] I always say that one of the things I owe in my field is the competition. How do people mainly find you? Sorry, how do people find you, what's the competition there? I think of myself as a window shopper basically, looking for a studio,

Or Hakim: [34:07] people find you through Google, people find you... if you go into Google now and type, I don't know, consulting for building a studio, I pop up first for you, if you type Videocast, which is the name of my business, I pop up first for you, or far-away ones, I pop up first for you, paid Instagram. But that's not what I'd search for, right?

Eyal David: [34:23] Depends. Like, in some of the studio stuff it could be that you'll search. No, definitely, but we were basically talking about studios.

Or Hakim: [34:30] Ah, okay, yes, that's a good question. Broadly, I'll explain to you what my typical customer looks like. I pick up the phone to a person, I don't even tell him the name of my business, because I understand that before me he probably left his details with another 4-5 studios. So I'd even be wasting time trying to explain who I am, because it's not relevant to the customer. You understand? They see paid ads, they leave me their details, so they leave details with lots and lots of other places. And that's why the sale needs to be very focused on value and not on... let's call it my brand. That's it, that's how they arrive, like. And do you take everyone? Like, what does it look like? No.

Low churn and how to choose a customer who stays

Eyal David: [35:08] No, not at all. And I'll ask you another question about this, you'll answer me why not in a moment, but I probably know, but tell me why, but what's the percentage, say you've now landed a customer, what are the chances he'll leave? That he won't continue with you? That he'll leave. I'm basically asking you what your churn rate is. Yes, I think around 10%.

Or Hakim: [35:25] Ah, 90% stay with you. Yes, very high. That also means like their podcast succeeded. The podcast succeeds, they're happy with the service. Yes. So basically... let's say that if they leave, I have, say, a customer now who's leaving, he's simply moving, he's relocating. So like he's physically leaving.

Eyal David: [35:42] You understand? So basically what you're saying is that your biggest risk is taking someone very young that like you're basically betting on. You give him a studio slot for X money. Yes, because you give him a studio slot for X money, but basically what you're looking at is his life cycle, right? Right. So okay, so how do you choose customers?

Or Hakim: [36:00] Nice, so customers looking for a cheap price, for me that's a no. And it's not at the level where I even refer them to competitors. Like it's at that level, because in my view they're not ready to come to me. I mean, a customer looking for a studio at 90 shekels, at 100 shekels, for me isn't a potential customer. And I need him to go to the studio that charges him that amount, so that he starts recording, and in another year he'll become... We heard that he'll basically bake himself. Yes, exactly, exactly. Self-baking. It's not that I'm very, very expensive, by the way. It's simply the customers' mindset, you know, I have customers who, say, tell me, listen, Or, they offered me cheaper somewhere else, and I didn't leave because you're here. And for me that's crazy, because a customer who comes to you for any reason that isn't price is the best customer, because he simply won't leave you when it's cheaper somewhere else. And cheap, you know, is always moving and changing. Just, I'll give you, just to give you a sense, I sell studio hours here between 650 and 950, there are places out there where you can pay 90 shekels. Yes, you said, okay. That's a gap.

Eyal David: [37:02] That's a gap of almost 10x, you understand? So that, you have to understand, you don't, you said it, but you're not only selling this hour, hour and a half, that's exactly the point. Right, there's a lot around it. It's very, the problem is that it's very hard to convey that in a sales call. Very, very complex. Depends to whom, depends to whom, again. If you're now aiming, if you're basically aiming at people who are already running a podcast that's successful,

Or Hakim: [37:25] they'll totally know how to appreciate it. Right, they'll know how to appreciate it, right. Because you're basically saving me time, right? You're saving, you're giving me confidence basically. Right, yes, it's much more than that. I make a real point in sales calls, I almost don't talk with them about podcasts. I talk with them purely business, and then this business consulting I do for them on the phone, it's also such a different conversation from what they had with other places, and it also gives them so much confidence, because after all they're not, lots of like businesses, say, that come to record don't come to record because they want a podcast, they come to record because they want to create, say, a marketing channel or branding. So I simply talk with them about what they're looking for, not about the product I'm selling them.

Eyal David: [38:02] Even more than that, you know, you have an interest, if you identify a customer like that, you have an interest in giving him a package, let's call it a soft entry package into your business basically, you understand that again only ten percent will leave. Right, yes, I really love

Or Hakim: [38:17] new customers coming in, that's obvious, you know, it hurts other places in the business, say the closing rate is very low, it's around... I don't know if it's very low, it's around 7 percent, for the sake of it. But every customer who comes in is a customer,

Eyal David: [38:31] that's the gap. So you're probably getting, that's it, a lot of leads that basically aren't leads you need. Right. So maybe you could even qualify it, just, I'm saying, qualify inside your form and redirect them already, without these calls reaching you. Yes.

Or Hakim: [38:43] I now, it's interesting you said that, because until today I worked with, say, a lead form on Facebook, and now I moved to a landing page, which significantly raises the cost of the leads, but,

Cost per lead, closing rate and data analysis

Eyal David: [38:52] but you can segment better, yes. Interesting, how much does a lead go for, do you want to share? Yes, happy to share even. A year ago

Or Hakim: [39:03] a lead cost me between 12 and 15 shekels, okay? And 7% closing. I know that at that time those were very, very good figures relative to other places. In the last year the leads cost me around 50-70 shekels, today with a landing page it's around 100 shekels. That's... but the closing rate stayed the same. The closing rate, the landing page campaign is new, so I don't have data there yet.

Eyal David: [39:29] The closing rate in the previous campaigns, yes. Now I'll ask you another question. Do you do all this by hand? You don't outsource this. No. You learned it? No. I don't outsource this. Wow, that's... in my business I tried so many outside people, really, because... because you want the time, you want the time for other things, and... I didn't manage to crack it, unfortunately. Yes.

Or Hakim: [39:48] My advantage in... speaking of this field, is that I'm really very technical. So the technical side is very easy for me, my difficulty is in the analysis, but... Come, come, let's talk about the analysis.

Eyal David: [39:58] Happily AI is very good at analysis. So it really, really solves this issue for me. But what do you have, which analyst here? I'm trying to understand, because you basically talked about two layers. You talked about marketing, about marketing numbers, what works, what doesn't work, and you talked again about your profitability percentage? That's the second thing? For me the difficulty in analysis is in finance and in marketing.

Or Hakim: [40:18] So focus me on finance, where basically? Sorry for the rambling, everyone. All good, all good. I think it'll really interest people, because I think most people don't analyze their business data, and it's very critical to understand how important it is. Let's say, I'll bring it down to two layers. There's the personal layer of life, and there's the business layer. The personal layer is simply understanding how much you earn. Like... you don't draw a salary? I draw,

Eyal David: [40:42] I totally draw, but... I mean, with a fixed salary, no? No. That sorted my life out, you know? I know, in my company it was like that, today I don't do it, but honestly you're right, that's an important point.

Or Hakim: [40:56] So like it's simply understanding how much you earn, like how much you earn a month, so it's simply having a table where it says how much came in, how much you spent, and then what profit is left. Which sounds kind of obvious, but it's not obvious at all, because just collecting the data is a task that can be very complex, and for me the biggest problem is trusting the data. Because I have an automatic system that collects the data, I simply trust it, you understand? And then I see a number and I'm not sure whether it's right or not. So my difficulty is building a mechanism I know I can trust, so that's on the personal side, and on the business side it's simply analyzing the data and linking it to more data in order to optimize the business. What does that mean in practice?

Eyal David: [41:39] Say you find your ten best deals, financially, and then you check the customers, and then you see that all the customers are, I don't know, men, 50 years old and blah blah. You're trying to create correlations, basically to create a story you can return to, because what you're basically doing, you want to productize, to position the business, the business, so you're basically trying to look for a pattern. Yes, patterns within it, exactly. Right. So that's probably the harder part, but if you're looking for 10-10 customers like that, and for you too, like, in the end it's,

Or Hakim: [42:14] you can actually do it pretty easily, I think, it's interesting. I don't know what my difficulty is, yesterday I had a conversation with my partner and she like asked me about the campaign, just, in passing, and then I told her that the campaign used to be for ages 18 to 65 and I made it 25 to 50. And then she told me, wait, but do you have 25-year-old customers? I told her, wow, barely. So she told me, so why, why like are you setting it at 25? And then I said, wow, you're right. I just didn't think about it, you understand? Like, it seems to me it's simply

Mindset: certainty, data, and staying sane

Eyal David: [42:45] that kind of way of thinking, of like thinking about data and relying on data in decisions. Yes, that's also probably hard, maybe let's talk about it for a second, in data, first of all to look from above, to see that there's something interesting enough here for us to drill down, because it's really easy basically to get into all kinds of data that maybe aren't necessarily interesting, and that's maybe challenging to crack. Right. So like, the top-down, you know, yes, that approach. So tell us for a moment about mindset. That's really interesting, because you talked about hard periods, you talked about good periods, basically abundance and so on, there's a cyclicality in the business basically. How does it feel not to know, like, you know, if I'm an employee then this salary will come in regularly, right? Right. What helps you?

Or Hakim: [43:26] Listen, first of all, I won't say I'm an experienced business owner, but like I've been a business owner for many years already, so I'm already pretty used to, I won't say instability, but the lack of structure there is in a business. Data, like it's something that creates a lot of confidence. Like there's nothing to be done, when you have 18 months back where you see that every month you're profitable, you understand that you'll probably also be profitable next month, one way or another. Yes, it doesn't prepare you for a war. It doesn't prepare you, but it calms you, it does calm. Knowing that you're operating efficiently, for me personally that calms me. Like when I come in the morning and I see that all the automations worked, that calms me. Yes. And mainly, I think understanding how the mechanism works. Like for me, say, a lot of the sales don't happen on the spot. I mean, I don't pick up the phone and close. That almost never happens. What does happen? I pick up the phone and a deal closes two or three weeks, a month later. So I know that all the calls I made last month close this month. You understand? So I know I have some kind of rolling stone. April, say, was a very stressful month, because in March I barely made calls. So I knew that in April... so how did you cope? I prepared financially. No, fine, still, you don't know how long it'll last. Right, I also didn't know how long it would last. It's challenging.

Eyal David: [44:53] It's challenging. It's a lot of stress. Coping with a lot of stress. Learning to digest that stress. What works for you?

Or Hakim: [45:01] My partner helps me a lot. Talking with her, like, she really knows how to calm me down. Working on self-worth.

Eyal David: [45:09] What does that mean? She's very important. That in the end,

Or Hakim: [45:13] in the end, look, in the sense of confidence, day to day, there's some layer of self-belief. And when you know you're a person capable of succeeding, and you're a person capable of making money, if you really think you're like that, then you won't really be stressed.

Eyal David: [45:34] Always my intention? I really understand. I think that what helps you in that respect, yes, that's one thing. I think that what really helps you, what you're describing, is like raising the level of certainty as much as you can basically using the past, using numbers, to validate it. You come every morning and you check that everything is ticking along, because that's a level of certainty. Right. I can say that for me meditation helps a lot, something I started. I also try, at the level of certainty, I try to plan the week, the month, and I also... yes, and then you know what you need to achieve at the level of the day. Those are things that help me a lot, these anchors.

Or Hakim: [46:11] Yes. For me the schedule is very, I really want to show you my schedule, it's very, very structured. I sit every Friday and plan the schedule ahead. Let's say it does give me a forecast of what I'm doing, but I can't say it gives me confidence. Because the pressure for me comes from... like mainly financial pressure. Not that I have financial problems, it's just a lot in my head. And then you know, even if in the schedule I see I'm doing lots of sales, I still need to train myself that it'll like calm me. That's it, there's something else here, maybe let's open a parenthesis for a second and come back, so that you can.

Eyal David: [46:47] In your business, the consulting one, I assume that... if... okay. There's a matter of payment terms here. Like even if you just closed a customer, you'll see the money, when?

Or Hakim: [46:56] Actually in consulting I see the money at the start. Wow. Yes, I always collect the money in advance.

Eyal David: [47:03] The whole budget. Yes. Which is very impressive that companies, not companies, actually companies, a, yes, b, you talked here about municipalities and such, it's really impressive that you manage... yes, that's very impressive.

Or Hakim: [47:14] I simply, I understood that this whole thing of payment terms. If you know how to offer a creative solution and you know how to be rational in your explanations, they often go along with you. It really depends what the amount is, really depends what the duration is and really depends who the customer is. I'll give you an example. Say you're working with a municipality, they tell you we want to build a studio, blah blah blah, there's a budget, I don't know, 40 thousand shekels, we pay net thirty. Fine, so listen to what we'll do. I'm issuing you a payment request now, in a month you transfer the money, the moment you transfer the money, we place the order, in two more months you see the studio. I'm saying, it really depends what the amounts are. Just to say a word on payment terms, just, net plus 30 for those who don't know, means waiting until the start of next month and then counting 30 days, right? I'm not wrong. I'll say even more than that, what it means is that you're going to fund the project out of your own pocket, that's the real meaning of it, and at some point you'll see the money. And thirty is still okay. And thirty is still calm, yes. There really is, working with government organizations is insane. Once I got net 120. Wow. Yes, very extreme. Wow, no, so in my field there's nothing like that.

Eyal David: [48:23] But yes, and in this respect of what, let's close this for a second, so really this thing of telling yourself, at least it works for me, telling myself that if I start creating movement, I'll start creating things I do, it'll meet me in the end, a bit like you say, so like that calms me a lot, it's in my hands somehow.

Or Hakim: [48:40] Yes. In general this thing of, I really saw like that every action I take is a kind of seed I plant. Like a person I sent, say, when I opened the business, I was really at the start so I simply sent a broadcast message to 300 people on WhatsApp, hi what's up, I opened a studio and blah blah blah, if you know someone who wants a podcast, know that I have one. I didn't get any customer from it, but suddenly after half a year one of those people suddenly referred someone to me, and suddenly that one referred someone to me, and suddenly that one wanted, and suddenly that one remembered me. So it's like 300 seeds like that that I sowed, and they simply needed to cook and suddenly after a while it became customers and it became something.

80 calls, no close: how to learn to sell

Eyal David: [49:16] Yes, that's totally better than if you'd done nothing and nobody knew anything. Creating that kind of flywheel, I really believe in it. And okay, let's talk for a second about shame, yes, did you have, do you feel shame about these things? Because you're saying I sit and make all these calls, I also approach like companies, right? Yes.

Or Hakim: [49:34] Do you feel shame in these respects? Not much. At first I had a lot, sales were very, very hard for me. Sales, when I opened the business here I put three thousand shekels into paid ads, about 80 leads came in, I called all of them, nobody closed. Which is very hard, getting on 80 calls and like they keep telling you no. You also don't know the numbers, you're telling me you're a person who really looks for certainty, but that was cutting right now. That was a feeling, honestly I didn't feel bad at that time because I understood that what I was doing was practicing. I didn't get on calls in my own head. Who guided you? How did you get into it like that, were you a blank slate? Yes, because I left the previous company, in my previous company I had a partner who did the sales, and I left and said okay, I want to open a business but I have no sales experience. And then I told myself okay, I have a good friend who has a car company and I'll go work for him and practice selling cars. And then I told myself wait, why should I do that, I'll simply open a business and work for myself and practice sales on my own. And then I told myself okay, I'll simply take 3,000 shekels that I might have put into a sales course and wouldn't have learned anything there. I'll put them into a campaign, we'll bring leads, make calls, that's the best learning there is. And that's it, I simply talked with people, it was really embarrassing, it was really hard. What made you keep going? I think simply the understanding that it's learning. Like you know it's like when you play guitar and like you know you're not playing well, but always when you learn guitar.

Eyal David: [50:55] There's a difference. You get feedback all the time that you're not good, right? For the sake of it. In sales, yes. Yes. But you also sometimes get feedback when you improve.

Or Hakim: [51:03] Yes, a faster learning curve, that's it. Faster, and it's also very like, if you really take it as learning, also very interesting. Like you kind of finish a call and then you sit with yourself and understand like what happened there, so the learning is also very interesting. It's also a lot of personality development. Like it's not, it's not just some skill, it's really development of your personality. And yes there was... yes, what did you feel was changing? My self-confidence, obviously, like that's the most, that. My communication ability, like once, if I could talk to you like this, that wasn't, that wouldn't have happened. I learned to talk at a higher volume, with energy, with my hands. I took a course with a mentalist, ten lessons, one on one, yes, who explained to me like body language and things like that. I invested very, very much in my interpersonal communication. Um... and I think those are only the things on the surface. I'm sure there are things, you know, that are also below the surface, that you know, all kinds of self-perceptions. Like once if you'd asked me, I'd have told you, I'm a bad salesperson. Today I know I'm not bad. Like, I have no doubt I'm not bad. I know I sell well. Do you know your number? What's your closing rate? Yes, there are numbers, there's evidence.

Eyal David: [52:12] How much time do you invest in learning like this? I mean, the example of the mentalist, I think you did more things. Yes. What does it look like?

Or Hakim: [52:20] Listen, the process of interpersonal communication for me is a process of many years, which starts around age 16. Yes, it's a process of really many years, and it's a non-standard process for me. I mean, usually learning processes for me are shorter, and they're very, very practical. I really learn from doing. I will say there's a coach who's been accompanying me for almost five years. Yes, the one who's here, yes. Yes, there's a coach, but he doesn't guide me in sales. He's simply a coach, like, he guides me in life itself.

Eyal David: [52:50] But yes, the process of interpersonal communication is really... probably that's it, we talked about mindset, and what... that's probably a big layer in what helps you respond. Very much, yes. So you have, I assume, some kind of goal for another five years, like that.

Or Hakim: [53:04] You talked about selling the business, and then you changed that, that also necessarily means there's something there. Listen, I'm a person with very high variety. Like, it could be that now I'm very much on the business, I'm very much into it. Focus for me is something I'm working on very, very hard. Like, taking a business and staying on it, that's also one of the reasons why I'm really staying in this business. Because I really, really want to take something and persist in it. It's hard for me to tell you some big goal like that for another five years. I think that in another five years I'd really like to deal with the field of automations, actually. The field of AI and automations. I simply have a very natural affinity for this field. And here, in this field of podcasts, it's the content world, which I also have a very high affinity for, but it's not, it's not my forte, let's call it. So maybe sell the business, maybe bring a bigger team that will run the business, I don't know. Like meanwhile wait and see where it basically grows. I enjoy challenges, I enjoy the day-to-day, it's good for me. I can also understand the FOMO from AI, like, that now... there's also crazy FOMO. In hindsight, if I went back in time, I'd tell myself,

Advice for beginners + wrap-up

Eyal David: [54:11] Or, do automations, but I didn't know myself well enough. That's it, it's a journey of self-discovery, we also talked about that. So tell me, now we've wrapped up, come, come, toward the end, we've wrapped up the episode. What's the best thing, the best advice you can give someone who's starting now? Someone at the start of the road? Someone, a man or a woman, yes? You know, it also doesn't have to be a 20-year-old Or who's starting or someone starting after the army, it can also be lots of employees who are now looking for this path, right? Right.

Or Hakim: [54:43] There's so much good advice you can give. Let's say, I'll give two pieces of advice. The advice at the broad level: invest in yourself, that's really the best advice anyone ever gave me, simply invest in yourselves, like, even if it's at the simple level of going to the gym, and even if it's at the more complex level of finding a coach and really working on yourself. And at the practical level, the tactical, let's call it, if you want to open a business, find the simplest thing you can do, and start making money from it.

Eyal David: [55:20] Yes. The most like basic there is. I remember finding myself, you know, making five dollars a day, because I set myself a challenge like that and it was too low. That's exactly it, there, I reached it, and then like, okay, what? So I'll expand for a second on what you're saying, I think it's an excellent idea, but to make some plan with a few milestones basically, where the first will probably be very easy, but little by little we'll pick up the pace, and then it also maybe converges and also to imagine the thing, and that has a very important part, and you build plans ahead in general, so like, also to see how you fund this thing and how much it'll cost, so

Or Hakim: [55:53] yes, I really believe in plans, it's really, really important. The reason I said that is because a business is simply a process of breaking limiting beliefs, a lot of times, and I think one of the biggest limiting beliefs people have, both at the start of the road and especially as employees, is the understanding that you can invent something, call a person, and the person will actually pay you for it, and that's it. Without you going to some place, working there and being paid for it, it's like the first time I closed a deal, it was like... what did you close? What was it? A filming day for 5,000 shekels. It was like, in the first business we did, it was crazy, you know, we were like... we did lots of sales, we tried like to do, it was really at the start of the road, and nobody bought, and you also, you also tell yourself, wow, this really makes sense. Like it's, like that's not how you make money, like in your head you're like, I need to go work somewhere, and that's how you earn, and then suddenly you call some business owner, and he's like, yes, I need filming, how much does it cost? 5,000. Okay, bank transfer, let's go. Amazing. Yes, and then you're like, yes, you can't believe it, like, 5,000 shekels from a phone call, from a service I learned from YouTube. Crazy. Tell me, do friends and such approach you for consultations like that? Lots, yes, a lot. I'm a person who really loves to help, it could be that I waste a lot of time there, on too many going-outs, but I think it pays off, a lot of times when I help someone, afterwards he has some kind of feeling that he wants to help me, and... tell me, and if people want to get in touch with you, say to ask questions, after this episode, what's best? Let's put a link to... you can use my phone number, 050-279-0195. We'll put, we'll put a link, you know? The studio's Instagram, Videocast, my website, done, so we'll put them. Or, how fun! Thank you very much. It was really fun, I think what I took most from this business is that the character, the character of the business owner matters super much.

Eyal David: [57:51] I really look at that when I talk with business owners, so like in this respect... right, totally, really. And like also this character that really changes over time, so in my opinion, like, when you work on a business, you also work on yourself in the end, and you probably don't want to work in a business when you can't stand it, so maybe also something you can take away, it's very evident that you love what you do. Yes, that's true. Excellent. Let's go, friends, hope you enjoyed, bye for now.